Appliances: brand new or brand name?

[Crofter]

I'm still a few weeks away from having to choose my kitchen appliances, but it has crossed my mind that I could start keeping an eye out for things on Gumtree etc.

 

It's a small kitchen in a high-end holiday let. So all it has is an under-counter fridge (pref with ice box), dishwasher, single oven, and hob (and extractor).

 

With everything being integrated, only the oven, hob, and hood are really on display. So my thinking is that I could spend a bit on brand names here to give a good impression, whilst the dishwasher and fridge could be cheaper.

 

One way of getting better brands is to go second hand. I've seen ovens from Neff, Bosch, etc going for an absolute song- would this be a high risk approach though? The last thing I want is something to break and my customers ending up unhappy (not that I expect much actual cooking to be done, there are two pubs within walking distance). The other thing is that I might struggle to get everything from the same brand, or otherwise matched, if I go secondhand.

 

I overspent slightly on the actual kitchen so it would be great to get the budget back on track somewhere, and if I stick to brand new I'm looking at Beko etc (nowt wrong with them but hardly going to impress anybody).

 

As usual I might be totally overthinking this, and people don't give a rat's ar*e about the make of cooker in a holiday let

[Guest Alphonsox]

I don't think you are overthinking this. I had the exact same conversion with my Brother (Isle of Mull) when one of the lets he looks after kicked out a load of perfectly working white goods and replaced them with Siemens/Miele units. The letting agent had told the owner that the stuff he had fitted was not in keeping with the house and the rental price being asked. The new appliances appear prominently on the rental web site.

 

It would be worth checking the local competition and seeing what other holiday lets in the area are fitted with. If it's going to be a high-end let then it will need high end appliances.

[joe90]

My brother in law has several rental houses he keeps ( as a pension) and over the years he has had cheap and xpensive white goods but finds the most economical way to go is find the cheapest with extended warranty and any years they work after the warranty is a bonus.

[Alexphd1]

Had a slightly different experience with cheap white goods in rental properties esp wasing machines. One flat was kitted out in candy, within 7 years all goods have been replaced apart from hob. We have mostly bosch/neff appliances now and have had very little problems in recent years.

[PeterW]

Bosch Neff Siemens and Smeg come out of the same factory - many of the components are shared. 

 

Electrolux do a similar list, Creda Hotpoint, Whirlpool and Indesit are again a family of products. All Ikea brand is Whirlpool. 

 

If if you check online there is a really good retailer of high end stuff with slight marks etc at silly prices - £3k John Lewis double fridge freezer for £1300 etc. 

 

AEG stuff is pretty good and so is Samsung - neither seem to have comparable cheaper siblings and you can get some good deals currently on last years AEG stuff via Trade Appliances

[divorcingjack]

I've gone for the Gumtree approach for miele applicances throughout. There's no way that I could have afforded them new, so my induction hob, oven, steam oven, coffee machine etc are all either ex display or barely used. The ovens etc are one series behind and the only hassle I had was making sure the fascias matched up as there is quite a variety of models. I bought a miele washing machine, which I'm using in my current rental and I have to say, it looks bombproof. My husband could practically lift the old (really cheap one) with one hand, but it took him, a burly friend and a lot of swearing to get the miele up the steps. 

 

It's taken me a while to build everything up, but the only thing I'm short now is an integrated microwave. I'd say, if you live either in london or the midlands, and have access to a van, there are many bargains to be had. I got a one year old, 900mm miele top of the range induction hob for £200. Not a mark on it, and it was nearly £3k originally.

[Guest Alphonsox]

16 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Bosch Neff Siemens and Smeg come out of the same factory - many of the components are shared. 

 

Electrolux do a similar list, Creda Hotpoint, Whirlpool and Indesit are again a family of products. All Ikea brand is Whirlpool. 

 

If if you check online there is a really good retailer of high end stuff with slight marks etc at silly prices - £3k John Lewis double fridge freezer for £1300 etc. 

 

AEG stuff is pretty good and so is Samsung - neither seem to have comparable cheaper siblings and you can get some good deals currently on last years AEG stuff via Trade Appliances

 

AEG is another Electrolux brand (has been since 2005).

Bosch/Neff/Siemens are the same company but manufacture different spec units in different factories. I have just bought a couple of Bosch ovens - The cheaper one was made in Turkey, the more expensive one in Germany.

[Crofter]

Thanks for all the replies- useful stuff.

My requirements here are maybe a bit odd, in that I am very much looking for 'bling' rather than what I would do in my own home where I would be quite happy to find good quality at a low price regardless of the label. So I'm looking for Audi, not Skoda, if you see what I mean. A bit sad maybe but the place has to be dressed to impress. From the little use I'm expecting any of this stuff to get the actual quality or longevity isn't my primary concern, and my own experience is that most stuff you can buy nowadays is fit for the job (my own house is decked out in Beko and that has been absolutely fine).

 

I don't think I should have any problems in matching things, as the fridge and DW are integrated anyway, and the hob will be touch control, leaving just the oven. I can imagine it would be difficult if I wanted say two ovens or an oven and microwave that all matched. However the keen observer will notice if the brand names don't match- I'm not sure whether that is a big deal or not. It's proving quite easy to find ovens secondhand, hobs less so, and fridges and dishwashers seem much more elusive. I wonder why that is?

 

[ryder72]

I would always recommend the basic models from good brand appliance  over the cheap stuff. Bosch/Neff/Siemens and Miele are the best of the large  mainstream brands. The first three are made in the same factories using the same components. Think of it as the Audi/VW/Skoda/Seat scenario. The quality of BSH group and Miele is hard to beat but its  not the cheapest around.

Contact your local kitchen specialist as there are often ex-display appliances available which of effective unused/mint with full warranties and sell cheaply.

 

Below is a list of sources of major brands in the UK.

 

BSH group does Bosch, Neff, Siemens, Gaggenau

Electrolux group does AEG/Electrolux and Zanussi as their main brands. Generally overpriced compared to quality.

Whirlpool does IKEA, Fisher Paykel. Patchy build quality

Hotpoint, Ariston, Indesit are part  of the Merloni group. Budget end brands

Candy/Hoover are another italian group but mainly chinese made. Budget end brands

Beko /Grundig is Turkish. Budget end brands, thought Grundig tries to sell the German connection on a cheap base product.

[Nickfromwales]

I'd go with Bosch for the washing machine and dishwasher. It's VERY wise to get a dishwasher that does a half load, very few do, and tenants will thank you for not having to wait an hour and a half to wash an evenings plates for 2....machine not running late etc. 

Go seconds for the hob and oven, just get some oven cleaner and get them shined up. After a couple of rentals new ones would soon be looking like cleaned up seconds anyhoo. 

I know it's an aside, but a boiling water tap ( no kettle to clutter up valuable work space ) and also one that dispenses chilled filtered water would be a huge bonus. 

[Onoff]

Well worth a read here, scroll down for all the manufacturers. I remember I'm sure, something a while back when Bosch took over the factory in Spain and that on their lower end stuff it now says "Made in EU" rather than "Made in Germany".

 

http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/about-the-appliance-industry/manufacturer-information/

[ryder72]

2 hours ago, Onoff said:

Well worth a read here, scroll down for all the manufacturers. I remember I'm sure, something a while back when Bosch took over the factory in Spain and that on their lower end stuff it now says "Made in EU" rather than "Made in Germany".

 

http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/about-the-appliance-industry/manufacturer-information/

Even this isnt completely accurate. In 2015, Bosch acquired complete control of the group by buying our Siemens. BSH own the Neff and Gaggenau brands and manufacture and distribute the Siemens brand under license from Siemens.

 

Granted they dont make everything in Germany any longer but I dont think this is important as they still apply certain manufacturing standards to the product. Audi make the TT in Hungary. A Panasonic factory in Wales makes all of the base model BSH combi microwaves. Does that make them German, British or Japanese. 

[Temp]

As this is a rental property check the rules on appliances and furniture. We let a place through an agent some years ago and they wouldn't allow 2nd hand furniture unless it had the fire rating labels still attached. There might be a requirement to have second hand electrical appliances tested ??

[Jeremy Harris]

15 minutes ago, Temp said:

As this is a rental property check the rules on appliances and furniture. We let a place through an agent some years ago and they wouldn't allow 2nd hand furniture unless it had the fire rating labels still attached. There might be a requirement to have second hand electrical appliances tested ??

 

Just been through this trying to donate some perfectly good furniture to a local charity.  They won't take it without the fire labels.  Like most people, we'd taken these things off when we bought the stuff, as they are a nuisance, being tied with bits of string.  By good fortune, all our newly delivered dining room chairs had fire labels tied on, so it was easy to just swap them over................

[dogman]

We run a holiday let .Remember you will get a cross section of people staying and a lot of people struggle with complex controls. Fancy electronic goods can confuse the heck out of older guests( not being ageist honest) 

Always go for basic controls in a decent well known brand. 

 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

As this is a rental property check the rules on appliances and furniture. We let a place through an agent some years ago and they wouldn't allow 2nd hand furniture unless it had the fire rating labels still attached. There might be a requirement to have second hand electrical appliances tested ??

Will everything need PAT testing for a rental in Scotland? Can't recall any such requirement down here. 

[billt]

ITYM "Fancy electronic goods can confuse the heck out of guests."

 

I'm old but technically literate and I find the interface design of many consumer goods appalling, but they've been doing that for years, it's just easier to design a lousy interface with computers.

 

Simple things can be bad as well. Last year we stayed in a place with an ancient solid ring hob. All the markings had worn off, so you didn't know which knob controlled which ring and the idiot designers had inverted the sense of the controls, so to turn the heat up you turned the knob anti-clockwise!

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, billt said:

ITYM "Fancy electronic goods can confuse the heck out of guests."

 

I'm old but technically literate and I find the interface design of many consumer goods appalling, but they've been doing that for years, it's just easier to design a lousy interface with computers.

 

Simple things can be bad as well. Last year we stayed in a place with an ancient solid ring hob. All the markings had worn off, so you didn't know which knob controlled which ring and the idiot designers had inverted the sense of the controls, so to turn the heat up you turned the knob anti-clockwise!

 

I agree, 100%, with bells on.  The idiots that design appliances need to spend a month going around spending time with new owners, to find out what they really want, and how so many struggle with really poor human machine interfaces (HMIs).

 

When designing the cockpit for the Future Lynx (now the Lynx Wildcat) we had endless problems with geeks wanting to put loads of tiny buttons in, and I had four Lynx pilots an observer and an engineer who spent most of their time putting the geeks back in their box, by showing them how impractical it was to use such daft interfaces in an aircraft that was actively manoeuvring to avoid threats.  Believe it or not, at one stage they wanted a trackball in the centre console to move the screen cursors, in an aircraft where having both hands on the controls at all times is pretty much essential.

 

With kitchen appliances, we shouldn't need to spend an hour reading the manual to fin out how to turn it on, set the required temperature, time or whatever, that should be intuitive.  There's a lot to be said for plain old-fashioned knobs. My car has a plethora of steering wheel controls, but it's far, far quicker, easier and more intuitive to reach over and turn the volume control than it is to fumble pressing buttons a dozen times....................

 

Finally, how many programmes does a washing machine really need?  I reckon it's three, maybe four, not twenty............

[dogman]

the oven we ended up with in the rental has two ovens with one doubling as a grill the knob can go through 360 deg switching between modes. the same for the rings 1-6 and back to off. however oven stops at 250 deg and you have to turn it back to off 

first guest thought that as all the others can go all the way around so should it. £15  for new knob please.

[Ferdinand]

5 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Will everything need PAT testing for a rental in Scotland? Can't recall any such requirement down here. 

 

It is a holiday let not a rental, and they may be different.

 

Having said that, in most places annual checks are advised but not necessarily required. Usually kicking in in year 2.

 

One reason to go integrated is that that prevents any arguments about 'portable'   and designs out any requirement for those items if it does exist. 

 

One way is to go on the short course and DIY the tests, which is I think easy.

 

Personally I never supply portable appliances in rentals; when I have they are gifts so T responsibility, as it saves the buggeration. Nearly all family Ts here have their own standalone white goods and you end up with nearly news in the garage for years; it is either integrated for e.g. young and pensioner Ts or a hole in the kitchen.

 

@crofter are you still after comments on this thread ?

 

Ferdinand

Edited May 5, 2017 by Ferdinand

[ryder72]

11 hours ago, JSHarris said:

 

I agree, 100%, with bells on.  The idiots that design appliances need to spend a month going around spending time with new owners, to find out what they really want, and how so many struggle with really poor human machine interfaces (HMIs).

 

When designing the cockpit for the Future Lynx (now the Lynx Wildcat) we had endless problems with geeks wanting to put loads of tiny buttons in, and I had four Lynx pilots an observer and an engineer who spent most of their time putting the geeks back in their box, by showing them how impractical it was to use such daft interfaces in an aircraft that was actively manoeuvring to avoid threats.  Believe it or not, at one stage they wanted a trackball in the centre console to move the screen cursors, in an aircraft where having both hands on the controls at all times is pretty much essential.

 

With kitchen appliances, we shouldn't need to spend an hour reading the manual to fin out how to turn it on, set the required temperature, time or whatever, that should be intuitive.  There's a lot to be said for plain old-fashioned knobs. My car has a plethora of steering wheel controls, but it's far, far quicker, easier and more intuitive to reach over and turn the volume control than it is to fumble pressing buttons a dozen times....................

 

Finally, how many programmes does a washing machine really need?  I reckon it's three, maybe four, not twenty............

 

Lot of this  comes out of market research where leading questions are asked and no one says no to a question that might ask 'do you want your oven to send your wife a happy anniversary text on your wedding anniversary'.

 

Its a waste of space but gives geeks their moment in the sun.

[Jeremy Harris]

Out of amusement, I asked my other half last night which programmes she uses on the washing machine (I only ever use one, the synthetic 40 deg one).  She uses two wash programmes (one being the same as the one I use) plus the spin only programme.  The only other features she uses all the time is the delay timer, so she can stick the thing on before leaving for work, knowing that it will have only just finished a short time before she gets back from work (something to do with reducing wrinkles) and the half load button for quick washes.

 

So that means we use two wash programmes, a normal medium temperature one and a short medium temperature one for small loads, a spin programme plus the delay timer.  The machine has a total of 18 programmes (we use two of them), 5 spin speeds (ours has always been set to the maximum since new) a half load button and a settable time delay, both of which are used.

Edited May 6, 2017 by JSHarris

[ryder72]

Why I always recommend buying a base model of a quality brand rather than a pimped up version of a cheap brand.

[Crofter]

Oh I absolutely agree with the need for simplicity! My yardstick is "would I have to show my Mum how this works?"

It's actually my main reservation about going for a touch control induction hob- the only ones I have used myself needed ten seconds of explanation in how to operate, and that fails the test I'm afraid. Can't beat a nice big knob... but they can be harder to clean. Hopefully there are some more intutive touch control hobs out there.

 

Bottom of the range from a posh brand is exactly what I'd like to go for.

 

Anybody got recommendations for suppliers of seconds or graded goods?

[Crofter]

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

It is a holiday let not a rental, and they may be different.

 

Having said that, in most places annual checks are advised but not necessarily required. Usually kicking in in year 2.

 

One reason to go integrated is that that prevents any arguments about 'portable'   and designs out any requirement for those items if it does exist. 

 

One way is to go on the short course and DIY the tests, which is I think easy.

 

Personally I never supply portable appliances in rentals; when I have they are gifts so T responsibility, as it saves the buggeration. Nearly all family Ts here have their own standalone white goods and you end up with nearly news in the garage for years; it is either integrated for e.g. young and pensioner Ts or a hole in the kitchen.

 

@crofter are you still after comments on this thread ?

 

Ferdinand

 

I've been told that PAT tests aren't necessary, although a friend of mine does them as a sideline so I may get him round anyway if he'll do me a wee discount/favour.

 

It's a while since I looked into it, but there are some significant differences between an ordinary let/tenancy and a Furnished Holiday Let. Not least being that I expect my customers to turn up with nothing but their suitcases.

Some of my neighbours run very high end lets that are fully equipped with posh crockery etc, but they have almost no breakages/thefts. If I can get into that sector of the market I'll be very happy- I like to think that if you show people some trust and respect, you'll generally get it in return.