Bonner Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 These are overheads which have to be distributed across all paid jobs. It is one of the costs of doing business. Different business but it costs us about £12k to submit a bid for a £1M project and we only win 20-25%. Overheads are part of the gross margin in price calculations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) We are not talking million plus jobs here...Small jobs dont take a days wages to qoute for by SME's. Most professional companies have software with material costs in datasets provided by suppliers to get latest prices from and set times on labour hours for specific jobs ie. SPONS for construction, smaller companies rely on experience from previous jobs and ringing suppliers for latest prices. One man bands are the ones getting Killed on qoutes as very time consuming for them...but they dont stick a grand on the price. Edited February 3, 2022 by gravelrash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 36 minutes ago, Makeitstop said: So who is it that pays the £1000? It is included in the overhead, along with admin, accounts, insurances etc. Every client pays it. There comes a time as a specialist contractor when you don't agree to do every tender sent to you, want to know how many are tendering, and need some element of trust that you are not being used as a 'check price', or to get free ideas. I am not commenting on the original question re roof cost by saying this, as I haven't looked at it. Major house developers make 25% profit, to shareholders, after other bonuses are paid. Big contractors claim to only make 2-3%, but perhaps that is 5% now, but have big overheads. Probably coming to 25%, but that is on a higher cost as they are using subcontractors with margins included. A reasonable mark-up for a small builder is 20% to cover everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajn Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 4 hours ago, gravelrash said: When the cost of demolition, clearance, digging out and removal of 160m3, drainage inc twin pump sewage station, 90t hardcore, insulated foundation, 30m3 of concrete, power floated, then 3500blocks built to 3.15m wall height, roof joists and including labour at £14500 comes to £38000 That sounds a good price. can't you get the same team to do the roof. EDPM is easy as long as the instructions are followed. Why not pay for you existing builder to go on the course. Our day rate builder did ours. He had done a couple before. Ours was two separate areas, total 95 sqm with two parapet walls and a concealed gutter on the main bit. Took about three weeks but rain was an issue and this includes the warm roof deck. Him and his man at £1500 a week so very little overhead for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 5 minutes ago, gravelrash said: but they don't stick a grand on the price. Yes they do or they lose money. If it takes only a day to look at an enquiry, then visit site, then calculate and write out a quotation then they are doing well. That is a day at say £250 which is cheap for someone who can do all that. win one if four. A bigger business has estimators and admin for which they add a percentage (5%). A smaller business perhaps doesn't think that way, but one way or another it has to be paid for. The new-start business doesn't do this and so has a £1,000 advantage, for first job only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 10 hours ago, gravelrash said: 20% was a good profit in the 80s/90s and even this was seen as high by other countries 20% gross will be 2% nett - so on £34k he has £680 before his nett margin has gone. And if he has 4 guys on it and it rains, that’s a day lost and the profit down the Swanee. If you want to compare materials (Caber be Egger etc) then you need to spend the time and money specifying it to that degree. You’ll also need to pay someone with the experience and capability to do it so don’t expect change of £1k for a full spec and detailed drawings along with the breakdown from contractors. You’ll gain nothing in terms of price but you’ll get a spec you can compare. It may also be more expensive as certain contractors may buy bulk and you want something bespoke that their supplier doesn’t normally provide and you could be buying part pallets etc This is why a lot of price contracts have “xxx product or similar” within the BoM as do you really care what the deck is as long as it is 22mm MR chipboard or ply..??? I’d also need the comments by the GRP roofers - they are saying that for a reason, and I wouldn’t trust my house and it’s waterproofinf to something 6 times thicker than a cheap condom … Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makeitstop Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 If I'm seeing it correctly, what you're saying is that theres an additional £1k put onto every job price. This is for the potential ratio of acceptance v refusal of quotes being 3:1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 12 hours ago, PeterW said: 20% gross will be 2% nett - so on £34k he has £680 before his nett margin has gone. And if he has 4 guys on it and it rains, that’s a day lost and the profit down the Swanee. If you want to compare materials (Caber be Egger etc) then you need to spend the time and money specifying it to that degree. You’ll also need to pay someone with the experience and capability to do it so don’t expect change of £1k for a full spec and detailed drawings along with the breakdown from contractors. You’ll gain nothing in terms of price but you’ll get a spec you can compare. It may also be more expensive as certain contractors may buy bulk and you want something bespoke that their supplier doesn’t normally provide and you could be buying part pallets etc This is why a lot of price contracts have “xxx product or similar” within the BoM as do you really care what the deck is as long as it is 22mm MR chipboard or ply..??? I’d also need the comments by the GRP roofers - they are saying that for a reason, and I wouldn’t trust my house and it’s waterproofinf to something 6 times thicker than a cheap condom … 20% net...I never said gross, and we are talking about a qoute on a minor residential works not a HS2 project. Asking for a list of materials proposed is not unreasonable with regard to ensuring you don't get an inferior product and it doesn't put on the contractor -he should know his products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtop Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 13 hours ago, Makeitstop said: If I'm seeing it correctly, what you're saying is that theres an additional £1k put onto every job price. This is for the potential ratio of acceptance v refusal of quotes being 3:1. It would depend on the value and complexity of the bid. But you have to recover the time and hence cost of bidding and not winning, whether thats in higher day rates or whatever. The cost needs to be recovered. Also if we were asked for s detailed breakdown for s smaller job then we would add this to the cost of the bid or not bid at all. Most decent trades have more work than they can handle so asking for something others don't might be quite reasonable, but also is declining to bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 I think it is time to hit the phone and get another couple of quotes. Do you think it would help if you got a general contractor in to do the insulation and upstands so the flat roofer just turns up for the glory work? It is a shame you were not allowed a pitched roof. I guess you costed firrings v tapered insulation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassanclan Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 I project manage a few small jobs (say 5 people working for a week) (not residential) for a small company of 25 workers. We generally charge 3 times the direct labour cost, but if it overuns into a 6th day I end up getting called into a directors meeting as the job has lost the company money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 10 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: I think it is time to hit the phone and get another couple of quotes. Do you think it would help if you got a general contractor in to do the insulation and upstands so the flat roofer just turns up for the glory work? It is a shame you were not allowed a pitched roof. I guess you costed firrings v tapered insulation? best cost on firrings was £3300 which when including insulation was 2500 more than mechanically fixed tapered...which then required over boarding and fixings pushing that cost up. The bonded tapered tissue faced insulation with osb deck is still the most cost effective build up by several thousand pounds than going with firrings. In hindsight I should have gone to planning appeal for a lot of things including a pitched roof but with my health I just wanted to get on with the build before pegging it..and then covid fecked it all up.lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 44 minutes ago, gravelrash said: The bonded tapered tissue faced insulation with osb deck is still the most cost effective build up by several thousand pounds than going with firrings. I have a bit of flat roofing to get done. Do you have a link to the insulation and / or a detail drawing of the build-up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: I have a bit of flat roofing to get done. Do you have a link to the insulation and / or a detail drawing of the build-up? File of layout supplied Have a look at building-innovation.co.uk its part of ecotherm and they supplied at a third of the price of Kingspan and was cheapest from about six suppliers. Bi20_130273_C-Green Lane, Leeds.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtop Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 2 hours ago, gravelrash said: best cost on firrings was £3300 which when including insulation was 2500 more than mechanically fixed tapered...which then required over boarding and fixings pushing that cost up. The bonded tapered tissue faced insulation with osb deck is still the most cost effective build up by several thousand pounds than going with firrings. In hindsight I should have gone to planning appeal for a lot of things including a pitched roof but with my health I just wanted to get on with the build before pegging it..and then covid fecked it all up.lol We had firings, OSB, tissue insulation, epdm. Firings I got a chippy to cut standard timber on site, cost me 2 days labour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 So further qoute has arrived...labour to install supplied osb deck, vcl and insulation (cost to me £11000) and there membrane and edge drips is £54000..so a total of £65000 for 160m2 on a 3m high building...£400/m2. Im not been unreasonable in saying they are thieving bast'ards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 No, they quoted for work and you don’t like the price/profit margin/risk they have allowed for. only thieving bastards when they steal materials from you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, TonyT said: No, they quoted for work and you don’t like the price/profit margin/risk they have allowed for. only thieving bastards when they steal materials from you TonyT, I am sorry to say the way you condone a profiteering company makes me wonder about your morality or if you run a business with the same ethics. When they have £6000 at most in materials and max of a week for maximum of 4 people in labour how can £48000 be justified. Its in Leeds not fecking Monaco! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtop Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 12 minutes ago, gravelrash said: TonyT, I am sorry to say the way you condone a profiteering company makes me wonder about your morality or if you run a business with the same ethics. When they have £6000 at most in materials and max of a week for maximum of 4 people in labour how can £48000 be justified. Its in Leeds not fecking Monaco! Its too expensive. But they could also have a load of other work making good money, so to do your job they want that much. Might be overpriced but thieving it isn't. Profiteering yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 16 minutes ago, redtop said: Its too expensive. But they could also have a load of other work making good money, so to do your job they want that much. Might be overpriced but thieving it isn't. Profiteering yes. In land of coal profiteering is still thieving...just legally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtop Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 minute ago, gravelrash said: In land of coal profiteering is still thieving...just legally Not unless you accept the contract, actually its just speculating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Sorry but no-one is profiteering here, they are quoting for a job and tbh I don’t think they want it. Most of the contractors I know are flat out and don’t want small jobs that need a lot of detail work doing so will quote off the scale as they know you won’t take them up on it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 So why fanny about and not be honest...I had a local guy on monday having a look, 30 years experience with EPDM and at least he was honest saying the job was too big for him...when asked about what I should be paying he said 150/m2 tops inc all materials from anybody. unfortunately he wouldn't recommend anyone.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, gravelrash said: TonyT, I am sorry to say the way you condone a profiteering company makes me wonder about your morality or if you run a business with the same ethics. When they have £6000 at most in materials and max of a week for maximum of 4 people in labour how can £48000 be justified. Its in Leeds not fecking Monaco! No one is forcing you to use them, maybe they felt obliged to quote, lots do it. silly price so you go else where or if you accept well…… My morals are fine, thanks for asking… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Supply and Demand ; teaches every one of us self-builders harsh lessons now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now