New Arrival

[DNA]

Morning everyone,

 

Just found the forum after Ebuild closed - great to see a successor now up and running.

 

I've just started a second self build in swansea and looking to build smarter than the first time around. Some great advice on here guys so well done and I look forward to contributing.

 

Nig

 

 

[PeterW]

Welcome (back..!) - how did you find us..?

 

Looks an interesting plot - what's the plan.??

[DNA]

Its a 5 bed 300m2 job Peter - all traditional construction bit like the attached which was an early 3D.

 

Took a year to get planning on this as the trees in the background are in the green belt.

 

It's a big plot though at 30m x 50m so i'm looking to buy a 3 tone excavator now as there's going to be a lot of moving / carrying / digging etc!

 

all 3d.pdf

[ProDave]

Hi and welcome (back)

 

That looks a good project.  We look forward to hearing about your year long planning battle.

[DNA]

J

just a nightmare Dave -

Plot bought in 2015 with Outline Planning which simply showed a 'box' on a block plan -  indication of entrances / access paths etc. Reserved matters application submitted in Dec15 along with a Building Notice to avoid new sprinkler regs being introduced in Wales - So long as I start in a year I'm exempt - plenty of time (so I thought!)

Nightmare begins:

·        Planners rejected my Reserved Application in March 16 - they didn’t think that the application fully reflected the outline 'box' and recommend a 'new' full application.  So, plans abandoned and new full design commissioned - (might as well at this point to take best advantage of the plot and submitted in June 16.

·        Planners then take forever to consider. Endless design adjustments asked for and to cap it all they asked for two 8-week time extensions over and above the statutory planning period to consider the application.

·        Mortgage people also unhappy as design has changed so new mortgage application needed - oh yes and a new site valuation ever though nothing had changes from a year earlier.

·        After many threats of official complaint/ calls to local MP/ calls to Head of Planning - Approval on 14th December 2016. Whoopee - Good news!! -  but wait a minute - pre-start conditions??? - " No development to commence before external material agreed or full drainage design approved" - wait a minute, I submitted a full materials schedule, a full SUDS drainage design and an approval letter from the Water Authority for surface drainage discharge.

·        Planners confirmed that the 'materials condition' had been added as I had used the words 'or similar' in the specification of the roof tiles - what??? no foundations because of this?

·        Having bitten my tongue again material samples delivered to Planning on the 20th December only to be told that the reserved application matters application period was - you guessed it - another 8 weeks!

·        That’s it, plot lost... No way am I paying for sprinklers/underground tank and pumping station because of this. So, after a mad panic Groundworkers start pulling foundations 1 week before Christmas - Building inspector confirms works 'officially started' on 23rd December - whew!!

·        Surprise surprise - Planners fail to decide on the materials in the statutory 8 weeks again - another extension required.

·        More calls and complaints established that the Planning Officer had files the Water Authority consultation note in the wrong file!! - I give up

·        Final approval received in March 2017... In total it took over 70 documents to get to this point.

[Redoctober]

WOW  What a saga - well done for getting it in ahead of those new regulations - never heard that one before for a domestic build - "sprinkler system" I can see the benefits but to actually impose it upon new builds does seem a bit OTT - What is the general cost for such a scheme? I wonder if that will have any impact and what about insurance? Say they the tea towel left on the hob sets it off!

 

Anyway, welcome aboard the fun bus!

 

PW.

[Triassic]

Were you dealing with an actual planner or a work experience person ! It makes  you wonder !

[ProDave]

Yes indeed what a saga. I guess you took a risk by "starting" before all the pre comencement conditions were signed off, and got away with it. I guess the worst thing that could have happened was they could have issued a stop notice, but the important thing was you got it far enough for building control to agree it was "started" without issue from the planners.

 

Let's hope the rest of the build goes more smoothly.

[Alexphd1]

Hi,

I feel for you, we also had "issues".

Can i ask why is the sprinkler system such a big no?

[Jeremy Harris]

Could be cost.  The very cheapest sprinkler install for our (much smaller) house was going to add over £4k, plus the cost of additional back up power to keep the water pump going if the mains power was cut off.  It was recommended by the fire officer, but even though I'd have liked to fit a system, the cost was just way too high.

[DNA]

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for the replies - I needed a coffee even after just recounting my planning experience.

 

You're right Dave, it was a slight risk but, based on the complaints I had already made and that I had submitted the reserved matters application, I felt that I had complied with at least the spirit of what was intended.

 

Aside from that, I have now learnt that there is quite a lot of case law around the unenforceability of pre-start conditions especially those that are not material to the consent or cause undue costs for applicants - roof tile choice for example.

 

You're right about the sprinkler system JS Harris is was a cost issue. The well-intentioned Welsh Government has imposed them on all new build residential projects from 2016 without I suspect appreciating the implications.

 

As the Water Authority would not guarantee supply pressure or continuity the costs for me were going to be:

·        full mains pressure plumbing throughout the house which being 300m2 and needing to be installed by a 'certified specialist' was about £5k.

·        underground storage tank with sufficient capacity - £2k + builders work / carting away several cubes etc.

·        pumping set and space for it inside the house including back up power supply £2k

·        Annual maintenance contract to confirm safe operation.

Insurance companies are also a bit nervous - a sprinkler false alarm can cause huge damage especially in timber frame / boarded structures so not for me I'm afraid.

 

 

[Ferdinand]

Thank-you for that - very illuminating Glad you got it through.

 

May I ask a couple of several questions?

Did you consider appealing for non-determination when you were being messed around? Can that happen in Wales?

When it came in there was a lot of consultation, including advice that the cost-benefit of the lives saved vs investment required was the wrong side of the "justified" line - so they perhaps made a political decision to override the evaluation rather than failed to understand it.

 

For what it is worth, my reading of the BRE Training material is that there is no legal obligation on the Householder to do maintenance each year.

http://www.cewales.org.uk/files/2114/5191/9937/04.12.15_Residential_Sprinkler_Guidance.pdf

 

(Though personally I disagree, and would consider 1-2% or so of build cost to be reasonable and would probably do it in my own build. Can you point me to insurance co evidence on frequency of false alarms and amount of water damage done ... as that is contrary to my reading elsewhere? The LABC categorises those points as "myths".)

 

Cheers

 

Ferdinand

 

[DNA]

Hi Ferdinand,

As you could imagine I had to make decision on this quite hurriedly during my planning application and felt this whole thing to be a minefield

Picking up your build cost issue first:

·        Most advocates of new things will cite 1-2% of build cost as being reasonable. However, costs are rarely that low. BRE suggest an installation cost range of £900 - £2715 – anyone having a recent quote for a wet radiator-based central heating lately will know that this is just too low especially when you have to put sprinklers in cupboards over 2m2 or where any dimension in a cupboard is over 1m - the entrance door on its own will likely be 900mm!

·        BRE also quoted a range of other costs which I felt were unrealistic - pump set installed for £300-£700. My electrician is on £250/day!

·        All of the seemly ‘reasonable’ 1-2% additions quickly add up. –

o   sprinklers (3-4% is nearer the truth)

o   Increased Part L standards (twice), 1-2% each time

o   SUDS – 1-2%

·        BRE neglected to cost up any builder’s work required

o   Roof structure reinforcement / groundwork to bury tank & plant space for pumps etc

Then there was risk:

·        Water supply companies won’t guarantee pressure, flow rates or supply continuity. Given the legal risk for designers in the event of fire where there was no water – tank systems every time so more expense.

·        Your right there is no legal requirement to maintain the system but as with most other things insurance companies will look to avoid claims where owners can’t demonstrate adequate maintenance. So, maintenance would end up being a necessity

·        No-one has even mentioned legionellae which to avoid stagnant water the whole house would then move to a tanked cold supply.

[Nickfromwales]

Hi Nig

 

I'm in Swansea too so pm me when the site kettle is hooked up . 

 

12 hours ago, DNA said:

My electrician is on £250/day!

Want to save £100 a day ? 

 

12 hours ago, DNA said:

Water supply companies won’t guarantee pressure, flow rates or supply continuity. Given the legal risk for designers in the event of fire where there was no water – tank systems every time so more expense.

I'm in the process of having a sprinkler system installed for my current client, (hydraulic calcs done and pipework 2/3 complete ), and the installer / commissioning agent has pre-advised of a very slim chance of having to have a small inline booster pump at the stopcock, but says he doubts it. Straight off the WW main on a 32mm main and 32mm stopcock. Same supply branches off inside to give me a tapping to take the domestic cold mains to the same flat. Getting a bit over 4 bar static iirc, have you checked the pressure where you are? Maybe you could have proposed a stored water system utilising accumulators which could have gone in unused eave space / garage attic space etc, charged once by a pump and then your only relying on stored energy for discharging. 

Also, my installed say there's been one reported case that he knows of where occupants died in a fire where a sprinkler system failed to go off, as the occupants / other had painted over the sprinkler heads so they failed to operate. Education is still needed here so that'll fall down to me I suppose to convey this important information onwards (rental property). . No reported cases from my guy re heads going off inadvertently, but only his feedback to go on so far tbh. 

 

Anyhoo, Welcome 'back' to the madhouse . Keep us updated. ?

 

[DNA]

Hi everyone. Back from a week off on holiday, though my wife isn't happy as coincidentally we stopped over very close to a couple of my potential aluminium windows suppliers so had to visit didn't we.

 

Finally decided to go with beam and block so below DPC blockwork can now go ahead. Container on the way as well Nick so 'site foreman's office' and kettle will soon be in place.

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, DNA said:

Hi everyone. Back from a week off on holiday, though my wife isn't happy as coincidentally we stopped over very close to a couple of my potential aluminium windows suppliers so had to visit didn't we.

 

Finally decided to go with beam and block so below DPC blockwork can now go ahead. Container on the way as well Nick so 'site foreman's office' and kettle will soon be in place.

 

Love it! 

 

I took my wife to Dungeness Nuclear Power Station...on our honeymoon! 

[DNA]

Wow.. respect for that!.. my wife was pretty neuclear because just looking at some ally windows... she thought I was barking drooling over the specs .... 60 micron powder coating etc.

 

 

[Onoff]

4 minutes ago, DNA said:

Wow.. respect for that!.. my wife was pretty neuclear because just looking at some ally windows... she thought I was barking drooling over the specs .... 60 micron powder coating etc.

 

 

 

I also once bought her 5L of car shampoo and the same of screenwash for Xmas. 

 

You're looking pretty good now eh?

[DNA]

Man after my own heart... but car shampoo is way to brave for me..

 

We (well me really) also have a christmas ritual in our house... I always buy my wife one 'domestic' christmas present every year for her to open first... last year she had a special 'desiger' gift .. a Gino D Campo soucepan set! ... didn't seem to appreciate it though.

 

[Nickfromwales]

And you're still married......how? 

[DNA]

What do you mean NIck... the Gino De camp set was really expensive and hard to find...!

[Onoff]

15 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

And your still married......how? 

 

He probably takes ages doing EVERYTHING! 

[DNA]

Ha .I wish!

[ToughButterCup]

7 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

And you're still married......how? 

 

I walked into a French Foreign Legion recruiting caravan on our honeymoon (in Calvi, Corsica, home to the 15th Rep). And we're still married.

I would have joined but the required haircut was too short.

[Ferdinand]

 

2 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

I walked into a French Foreign Legion recruiting caravan on our honeymoon (in Calvi, Corsica, home to the 15th Rep). And we're still married.

I would have joined but the required haircut was too short.

 

 

Just like self-build: "You are here to stay until the rattle in your dying throat relieves you!"

 

And there's even an H&S lesson at the end.