All Electric

[Newlywelsh]

We’ve just moved into a 90s house in mid Wales, sadly it has had little or no maintenance for a few years and the original storage heaters are struggling to keep us warm but the hot water cylinder is completely shot - fortunately there is an electric shower…

We will be having new Dimplex quantum storage heaters supplemented with electric radiators installed soon. 

I hope to have solar pv installed ASAP but am trying to get a good HW solution, currently trying to decide between standard replacement cylinder, solar thermal or maybe sunamp (which is how I came across this excellent forum!). 
 

I’ve read a few topics about SA but am still unsure if it would be a good investment as it’s still a relatively new product. I’m hoping to get some up to date viewpoints especially on reliability…

[Marvin]

8 minutes ago, Newlywelsh said:

We’ve just moved into a 90s house in mid Wales, sadly it has had little or no maintenance for a few years and the original storage heaters are struggling to keep us warm but the hot water cylinder is completely shot - fortunately there is an electric shower…

We will be having new Dimplex quantum storage heaters supplemented with electric radiators installed soon. 

I hope to have solar pv installed ASAP but am trying to get a good HW solution, currently trying to decide between standard replacement cylinder, solar thermal or maybe sunamp (which is how I came across this excellent forum!). 
 

I’ve read a few topics about SA but am still unsure if it would be a good investment as it’s still a relatively new product. I’m hoping to get some up to date viewpoints especially on reliability…

Definetly before changing anything, now is the time to consider the options. As a guess, a direct hot water tank or a sunamp, is not really that much more spread over a few years.

 

How was the old HW tank heated? Electric?

 

[Nickfromwales]

36 minutes ago, Newlywelsh said:

or maybe sunamp (which is how I came across this excellent forum!). 

Have you checked the prices recently? They’ve gone up considerably. A similar size unvented cylinder will leave around £2k change in your back pocket. 

[TonyT]

Immersion via diverter via PV solar panels.

 

quantum storage heaters are expensive, so added up may be the cost of components of a more energy efficient system

 

best do some heat loss calculations before committing.

 

 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

Immersion via diverter via PV solar panels.

+1 This the route I'm taking

[keith65]

Have you looked at a SAHP tank and thermal panel as can be linked to PV

Edited November 7, 2021 by keith65

[Newlywelsh]

3 hours ago, Marvin said:

Definetly before changing anything, now is the time to consider the options. As a guess, a direct hot water tank or a sunamp, is not really that much more spread over a few years.

 

How was the old HW tank heated? Electric?

 

All electric here, no gas in the village and installing a full new wet system would be very disruptive and I think pretty costly.

[Newlywelsh]

3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Have you checked the prices recently? They’ve gone up considerably. A similar size unvented cylinder will leave around £2k change in your back pocket. 

Good point, I think a SA size 9 is around £3k plus the install

[ProDave]

Why the new storage heaters?  Unless they are really old and tatty looking, there is not a lot that can't be fixed in an old school storage heater, for a lot less than replacing them.

 

Ditto the HW tank, worst case a new immersion heater.

[Newlywelsh]

4 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Why the new storage heaters?  Unless they are really old and tatty looking, there is not a lot that can't be fixed in an old school storage heater, for a lot less than replacing them.

 

Ditto the HW tank, worst case a new immersion heater.

They are pretty tatty but I need them to be be more controllable and work as a ‘system’. At the moment, I’m adjusting the output control at least twice a day and not really getting it right! The HW tank had a weeping leak from the side seam, so needed to go!

[Newlywelsh]

3 hours ago, TonyT said:

Immersion via diverter via PV solar panels.

 

quantum storage heaters are expensive, so added up may be the cost of components of a more energy efficient system

 

best do some heat loss calculations before committing.

 

 

I’m starting to think that’s the way forward… can you expand on the suggestion of a more efficient system?

[Marvin]

17 minutes ago, Newlywelsh said:

4 hours ago, TonyT said:

 

I’m starting to think that’s the way forward… can you expand on the suggestion of a more efficient system?

As @TonyT suggested any opinion would be related to the thermal resistance and airtightness of the house so details of that a must really....

 

We live in bungalow with no mains gas, which had night storage heaters, but renovated with better airtightness, insulation, MVHR and an LPG boiler but have recently removed the boiler and have recently installed an air to water ASHP, PV on the way, and an electric car charging point. We have kept the indirect cylinder and are looking to use the hot water immersion when we have excessive PV power, or into the EV. 

[Russdl]

We're all electric with a Sunamp, and it's the all electric Sunamp as well (we have no ASHP).

 

We charge the Sunamp with PV or cheap overnight electricity, (both of which seem to have disappeared). Generally speaking it works very well and up to about a month ago we had paid nothing to charge the Sunamp as our solar export more than covered the cost of any electricity we had to import. I suspect October will be a different kettle of fish but we are in credit with our provider so I'm kinda hoping the credit balance will see us most of the way through the winter months until we start producing more than we use again next spring.

 

Regarding reliability of the Sunamp, we had a thermistor string fail early on which was very quickly replaced by Sunamp and it's been fine since, it just sits there and silently does its thing.

 

One of the early issues reported by Sunamp users on here was that it wouldn't charge until it was fairly well depleted. That is not the case now, our's will take a charge anytime we let it.

[Newlywelsh]

56 minutes ago, Russdl said:

We're all electric with a Sunamp, and it's the all electric Sunamp as well (we have no ASHP).

 

We charge the Sunamp with PV or cheap overnight electricity, (both of which seem to have disappeared). Generally speaking it works very well and up to about a month ago we had paid nothing to charge the Sunamp as our solar export more than covered the cost of any electricity we had to import. I suspect October will be a different kettle of fish but we are in credit with our provider so I'm kinda hoping the credit balance will see us most of the way through the winter months until we start producing more than we use again next spring.

 

Regarding reliability of the Sunamp, we had a thermistor string fail early on which was very quickly replaced by Sunamp and it's been fine since, it just sits there and silently does its thing.

 

One of the early issues reported by Sunamp users on here was that it wouldn't charge until it was fairly well depleted. That is not the case now, our's will take a charge anytime we let it.

Thanks for the reassurance, both on SA reliability and customer support. I don’t think we will be able to export to the grid as we are not able to have smart meters (no mobile signal in this valley as yet) I’m looking at battery storage to smooth out our consumption and aim to use everything we generate as there seems little point in exporting at ~5p under the new SEG

[Iceverge]

18 hours ago, Newlywelsh said:

We’ve just moved into a 90s house in mid Wales

 

Hold fire!! Hold Fire goddammit !!!!!!!

 

ASHP, PV, sunamps , UFH, MVHR if installed in the wrong manner or circumstance will be little more than fancy words that burn up all your cash. 

 

They work very well for lots of Buildhubbers but invariably as an addition to houses that really have sorted the fabric first. Their houses are comfortable and cheap to run with these cool technologies not because of them. 

 

We have a passive class house. Almost zero money was spent on fancy tech (except €3k on MVHR). No ASHP, UFH,  sunamp, thermal stores, solar thermal, solar PV no central heating, and no logburner. The house is very comfortable, no drafts, temperature topped out at 22deg in a heatwave, bottomed out at 18deg before we turned on the heater. Normally its 19-21 in every room with little input. 

 

We heat our water with an immersion and an UVC. 2 adults + 2 small kids at home all summer. Average total electricity consumption 18kWh/day or 0.1kWh/m2/day. 

 

Space heating is done by one of these, sitting in the hall. I'd like to claim it was cheap but I it found buried in my parents shed. My hitech upgrade was taking a red marker and adding some divisions to the thermostatic dial. 

 

 

 I'm now monitoring the electricity usage (simply by reading the meter and putting it into a spreadsheet) to decide if an A2A heatpump is justifiable.  Data is still all over the place as we've only been heating with a week or two. 

 

My point being is that your hard earned cash is precious and sales people will tell you the sun moon and stars to make you part with it. The biggest bang for your buck is fabric improvements (its boring i know!)  and the more you do here, the less and less fancy addons make sense. 

 

 

Firstly move into your house .Keep your money in your pocket!  Live with it and monitor the parameters. We got one of these from Lidl. ( You're getting a taste for how tight I am at this stage!) 

 

 

 

 

Then get going on improving the house in this order. 

 

1.Eliminate bulk water ingress. 

2.Ventilation, preferably mechanical, ideally MVHR. 

3.Airtightness, so cheap to DIY and so effective. 

4.Improving U values including windows + doors. 

5.Reduce consumption via low input devices ( heat pumps etc)

6.Renewables.  

 

 

Best of luck! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Iceverge

[Newlywelsh]

1 hour ago, Iceverge said:

 

Hold fire!! Hold Fire goddammit !!!!!!!

 

ASHP, PV, sunamps , UFH, MVHR if installed in the wrong manner or circumstance will be little more than fancy words that burn up all your cash. 

 

They work very well for lots of Buildhubbers but invariably as an addition to houses that really have sorted the fabric first. Their houses are comfortable and cheap to run with these cool technologies not because of them. 

 

We have a passive class house. Almost zero money was spent on fancy tech (except €3k on MVHR). No ASHP, UFH,  sunamp, thermal stores, solar thermal, solar PV no central heating, and no logburner. The house is very comfortable, no drafts, temperature topped out at 22deg in a heatwave, bottomed out at 18deg before we turned on the heater. Normally its 19-21 in every room with little input. 

 

We heat our water with an immersion and an UVC. 2 adults + 2 small kids at home all summer. Average total electricity consumption 18kWh/day or 0.1kWh/m2/day. 

 

Space heating is done by one of these, sitting in the hall. I'd like to claim it was cheap but I it found buried in my parents shed. My hitech upgrade was taking a red marker and adding some divisions to the thermostatic dial. 

 

 

 I'm now monitoring the electricity usage (simply by reading the meter and putting it into a spreadsheet) to decide if an A2A heatpump is justifiable.  Data is still all over the place as we've only been heating with a week or two. 

 

My point being is that your hard earned cash is precious and sales people will tell you the sun moon and stars to make you part with it. The biggest bang for your buck is fabric improvements (its boring i know!)  and the more you do here, the less and less fancy addons make sense. 

 

 

Firstly move into your house .Keep your money in your pocket!  Live with it and monitor the parameters. We got one of these from Lidl. ( You're getting a taste for how tight I am at this stage!) 

 

 

 

 

Then get going on improving the house in this order. 

 

1.Eliminate bulk water ingress. 

2.Ventilation, preferably mechanical, ideally MVHR. 

3.Airtightness, so cheap to DIY and so effective. 

4.Improving U values including windows + doors. 

5.Reduce consumption via low input devices ( heat pumps etc)

6.Renewables.  

 

 

Best of luck! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the great advice! I don’t think we have any water ingress (except for the leaking HW cylinder, which is now removed). The house has cavity walls with rock wool insulation and all windows are double glazed. I’ll be increasing the roof insulation but I hadn’t considered air tightness and MVHR - definitely food for thought!
 

My biggest priority though is getting some hot water in the taps, and I think I agree with the consensus of going with a new unvented cylinder that will run off E7 for now and PV when I manage to get it installed.  

[SteamyTea]

@Iceverge

I have to agree with you in this. What I did and in my second year halved my energy bills.

Starts to get harder after that, but down to about a third of what I used to use.

But.

If changing a DHW system anyway, worth looking at something like an Ecocent, especially if it can be fitted in, in part, with the MVHR i.e. take some if the exhaust air and pull the energy our of it (why don't we already have MVHR systems that do this, we have them with cooling HPs in them).

 

There does come a point where energy scavenging just becomes that, scavenging.

 

A Cornishman is just like a Yorkshireman, but with all the generosity squeezed out.

[Iceverge]

 

This is the same as ours. No complaints with the cylinder so far. 

 

https://www.cylinders2go.co.uk/shop/renewable-energy/300-litre-telford-tempest-heat-pump-cylinder-twin-immersion-version/

Would future proof for an ASHP if you're committed to that route. 

 

However they are nudging the price of one of these which already has a heat pump and will take care of your ventilation too. (Like the Ecocent that @SteamyTea mentioned)  

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284146848717?hash=item422878d3cd:g:9j4AAOSwMWhhg-F5

 

 

4 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

why don't we already have MVHR systems that do this

But we do. €10k though! 

 

 

 

[Visti]

On 08/11/2021 at 08:37, Russdl said:

We're all electric with a Sunamp, and it's the all electric Sunamp as well (we have no ASHP).

 

We charge the Sunamp with PV or cheap overnight electricity, (both of which seem to have disappeared). Generally speaking it works very well and up to about a month ago we had paid nothing to charge the Sunamp as our solar export more than covered the cost of any electricity we had to import. I suspect October will be a different kettle of fish but we are in credit with our provider so I'm kinda hoping the credit balance will see us most of the way through the winter months until we start producing more than we use again next spring.

 

Regarding reliability of the Sunamp, we had a thermistor string fail early on which was very quickly replaced by Sunamp and it's been fine since, it just sits there and silently does its thing.

 

One of the early issues reported by Sunamp users on here was that it wouldn't charge until it was fairly well depleted. That is not the case now, our's will take a charge anytime we let it.

Hi Russdl,

 

Any chance you can let us know how you sorted that out? At the moment our sunamps charge whenever they like and aren't connected to our PV. We would ideally like to do what you have done so we could make better use of our tariffs. Any help/guidance on your system setup would be very much appreciated,

Laura and Oliver

[ToughButterCup]

Our set up is almost exactly the same as @Russdl.

Our Sunamp is a 13.7 Kw machine, and it sucks every last drop of PV we  produced (except for a couple of days) this year. Currently, we're lucky if we get a Watt or two per day.  We use an Eddi Diverter. We missed the FIT - bit of a bummer but I'm not moaning (yet, - don't tempt me to). We haven't  swopped tarrifs (Octopus) yet for cheap overnight charging for the SunAmp, but that job is  on the list of lists of lists somewhere for me to do soon.

 

We are using 5 SensorPush data loggers placed round the house to see how  it performs. Cleaning up the data from those sensors is a bit of a nightmare, but when I have some time, we'll be able to analyse the data and make evidence-based decsions. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by ToughButterCup

[SteamyTea]

16 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

We are using 5 SensorPush data loggers placed round the house to see how  it performs

How do they monitor the power into and out of the SA?

[Russdl]

@Visti Initially we used a 24 Hour Supply Master Fused Spur Time Switch to dictate to the Sunamp when it could/could not charge. It was set to come on at 11:30 and stayed on for 4 hours. During the summer months it would be charged up within 3 or so hours, using the sun if it happened to be shining and grid if it wasn't.

 

I then swapped that out for a Shelly 1PM, as recommended by @PeterW. I was going to use its 'IFTTT' ability as I was on Octopus Agile but that didn't really work as the Agile price has been through the roof, 24/7, for the last month or more.

 

I am now on Octopus Go which has a 5p/kWh price from 00:30 - 04:30 so the Shelly turns the Sunamp on between those hours (again, it's normally finished in about 3 hrs).

 

Shelly's also give our Willis heaters (for the ground floor UFH) the same 4hr window of opportunity if the need is the there, same goes for the towel rails and electric UFH in the bathroom/en-suite.

 

If the sun is shining I'll use the Shelly 'app' to turn stuff on as and when.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterW]

On 08/11/2021 at 12:48, Newlywelsh said:

My biggest priority though is getting some hot water in the taps, and I think I agree with the consensus of going with a new unvented cylinder that will run off E7 for now and PV when I manage to get it installed.  

Don’t forget an unvented cylinder needs all the fun of discharge pipe work etc. if you have the space, and the water pressure, then consider a thermal store as it doesn’t need any of the servicing etc. You will need to store at higher temperatures but no issue with that if it’s direct electric anyway. 

[Visti]

Great shout on the Shelly. We were thinking along those lines but hadn't a clue what to tell the electrician! Now to the drawing board!

 

We were thinking of the agile tariff but as you said the recent price hikes have us hesitating. We'd need a FIT equivalent given our PV, which I think only comes with Octopus Agile or Octopus Outgoing. Not sure it's available with Octopus Go as that'd be the most reliable approach. Might start on Outgoing and see how much of the PV we manage to capture each day via the sunamps. If 100% then maybe we can forget about feeding in and switch over to Go.