Our VAT reclaim: a car-crash in the making?

[ToughButterCup]

How to set up a failed VAT reclaim application process in one easy lesson  (pay attention at the back there please ....  @pocster )

 

In brief:

• make the date of Entry in the  Valuation List  four months before you (the Valuation Office) tell both the Local Authority and the Council Tax payer
•  have an HMRC employee who is asking why I applied more than  three months after the date I was told of the listing , and 8 months after the actual listing was made by the Valuation Office, but less than 3 months after the date  that the letter telling us arrived.
• It took the Valution Office 5 months to tell both the LA and me of the listing

 

Another way of saying the same thing is : disqualify the claimant from applying by not telling them about the listing for 5 months.

 

 As far as HMRC are concened, that's already two months late

 

Facts:

Date of Entry to the Valuation List  (called the Effective Date of Alteration) : 1st December  2020

From that date, the clock startes ticking: you have three months from that date to get your claim in.

Date which the Authority (Wyre) and I were told of the listing : after the 21st April 2021  (letter dated 21st April 2021) - I make that 5 months later

 

 

To add insult to injury the HMRC are asking me to list the (planned) works carried out between 1st December  and the date I applied for the refund.

They already have that data: all they need to do is look at the spreadsheet submitted:  each entry is dated. And all entries are listed in date order.

 

All the employee has to do is read the words and numbers.

 

Which makes me suspicious. Are they lining themselves up to deduct the VAT claimed for items  purchased between  1st December 2020 and the date I applied for the reclaim?

 

Can't take joke? Honestly, there's no need to submit a VAT reclaim. Nobody forces ya! Make life easier, do without the money - 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by ToughButterCup

[Pocster]

I plan to purchase literally everything before my claim goes in I.e the 3 month ticking bomb from sign off . So that reduces the chance of Hmrc bitching at me . Though this fight is still a good few years away from me ; I’m in the ring training !! ( boxing ring before @Onoff jumps in there ) 

Edited October 21, 2021 by pocster

[epsilonGreedy]

26 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

• It took the Valution Office 5 months to tell both the LA and me of the listing

 

 

Did you request a valuation?

If not what do you think prompted the valuation?

Did they visit or was it a drive-by valuation?

 

I thought the critical time limit was 3 months after occupancy? 

[ProDave]

So they have refused this claim.  If you are not successful appealing this, then surely you will get another go within 3 months of getting your completion certificate?

 

Note on that.  My completion certificate was dated as the day I applied for it not the day it was issued.  If they took 3 months to issue it........

[ToughButterCup]

27 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

...

I thought the critical time limit was 3 months after occupancy? 

 

Quote

You can only make a single claim not more than 3 months after the construction work is complete and the 3 months generally runs from the date of the document being used as completion evidence. 

 

Pinned VAT thread on this site. The Reclaim Process 

and 

 

 

In our case that acceptable evidence is the Notice of Making a New  Entry into the Valuation List ( rather than the Completion Certificate because we're skint)

 

That Notice took 5 months to get to us: 2 months too late to apply.

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

Make life easier, do without the money

 

Believe me, I do.

[ToughButterCup]

33 minutes ago, ProDave said:

So they have refused this claim. ....

 

No, they haven't refused it. Yet.

They are asking why I applied in July given that the start date for the 3 months was in December of the year before. They are also asking us to list the items purchased between the Effective Date of Listing and the date when I applied. (First week of July 2021)

 

The answer is it;  took 5 months to tell me that  - between them -   the LA and the Valuation Office took 5 months to tell me that the official date for Occupancy was 1st december 2020. I was told on or just a bit later than 21st April 2021.

Edited October 21, 2021 by ToughButterCup

[ProDave]

Stick to your guns that you submitted the claim within 3 months of the date you were made to believe the valuation to have been done and it it was in fact done earlier that is internal politics within the council who chose to only notify you some time later, and you had no way of knowing it was done earlier.

 

If they accept that fact, then the other question is irellevant.

 

It does make me angry this time limit thing, why should some paperwork mix up like this disqualify a claim.

 

Hoping sense prevails and they accept what you say

[Onoff]

I wonder if you could start a Stage 1 Complaint against the LA if they've taken too long? 

[Pocster]

I’m confused by the valuation.

I thought you simply ‘finish ‘ get BCO out then 3 months to submit - and that’s it .

As @ToughButterCup states I am indeed asleep at the back of the class - what have I missed ?

[ToughButterCup]

8 minutes ago, pocster said:

...

I thought you simply ‘finish ‘ get BCO out then 3 months to submit - and that’s it .

...

 

Yes,  @pocster  , you were asleep as usual  ?.  The BCO route  is one way of indicating you are finished. However, there are several others as detailed below

 

Here's the relevant bit from the form you have to complete;

Quote

....

If you do not have a completion certificate yet, we’ll accept one of the following documents:

 

• a habitation letter from the local authority ...

• in England and Wales, a VOA: Notice of making a New Entry into the Valuation List

[several others relevant to NI and Scotland deleted]

....

A building is normally considered to be completed when it has been finished according to its original plans. Remember that you can make only one claim no later than 3 months after the construction work is completed. The 3 months will usually run from the date of the document you’re using as your completion evidence.

...

(Form VAT432NB , Notes to questions, pages 6 and 7) 

 

This is  the key issue

The 3 months will usually run from the date of the document you’re using as your completion evidence.

 

Here's a photo 

 

 

 

Oh, that word 'usually' (above): needs to be read in conjunction with the notes provided in the main VAT thread. 

 

[Pocster]

2 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Yes,  @pocster  , you were asleep as usual  ?.  The BCO route  is one way of indicating you are finished. However, there are several others as detailed below

 

Here's the relevant bit from the form you have to complete;

 

This is  the key issue

The 3 months will usually run from the date of the document you’re using as your completion evidence.

 

Here's a photo 

 

 

 

Oh, that word 'usually' (above): needs to be read in conjunction with the notes provided in the main VAT thread. 

 

Ah ok . I’ll go back to sleep for another 2 years . ? ? 

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

Stick to your guns that you submitted the claim within 3 months of the date you were made to believe the valuation to have been done

....

 

The reply to @pocster immediately above applies.

 

BUT.

I recognise the importance of the pinned post written by @newhome  A Guide to the VAT Reclaim Process , where she says

 

Quote

A while ago HMRC started to apply different criteria to determine when a house is complete. The claim forms have not been updated to highlight this so this change of policy caught out many people including accountants who prepare claims regularly for clients.

 

HMRC appear to have refused claims from people who have occupied their houses before completion, finished the build whilst the house was occupied, then obtained the completion certificate at some point and applied for the VAT reclaim within 3 months. 

 

The difference in our case is we haven't finished the build (and won't for some time to come) but have still applied for the VAT refund before '... the finish according its original  plans ...' (HMRC VAT Form VAT431NB; Notes,  page 6 and 7).

 

In simple terms, once we were informed of the date of occupancy, we have tried to honour the letter of the guidance. 

[ProDave]

Yes never admit to occupying an incomplete house. Of course we did not occupy ours until we had the temproary habitation certificate.

[newhome]

I think if you have evidence that it took 5 months to receive notice of the listing which you clearly do have then you should be ok. It’s pitiful that they can’t work some of this out themselves however! 
 

I would take the opportunity to tell them that as you don’t yet have the completion certificate and there are still a few things to finish you intend to submit a supplementary claim at a later date a la the tribunal decision in the linked case below ?

 

Ellis and Bromley tribunal decision

 

 

 

 

[Temp]

9 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Which makes me suspicious. Are they lining themselves up to deduct the VAT claimed for items  purchased between  1st December 2020 and the date I applied for the reclaim?

 

Yes it sounds like they are going to argue the house was complete on 1st December 2020 when it was valued so nothing after that can be claimed.

 

I would strongly argue the house wasn't "completed" until just before you occupied it and provide evidence. We're any services not connected until then? 

[jamieled]

The three months being from the document date seems quite clear apart from the 'usually ' bit. Can it be quoted back to them?

Edited October 21, 2021 by jamieled
Duplication of others posts above

[ToughButterCup]

12 hours ago, newhome said:

...

I would take the opportunity to tell them that as you don’t yet have the completion certificate and there are still a few things to finish you intend to submit a supplementary claim at a later date a la the tribunal decision in the linked case below ?

 

Ellis and Bromley tribunal decision

 

Thanks very much indeed. 

[joe90]

I wanted to wait fir BCO sign off but council insisted it was habitable with temp kitchen etc. This is exactly why I got my VAT claim done by a professional VAT reclaim guy (others here have used him) he claimed back more than I thought available which more than paid his modest fee!!!

[newhome]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

I wanted to wait fir BCO sign off but council insisted it was habitable with temp kitchen etc. This is exactly why I got my VAT claim done by a professional VAT reclaim guy (others here have used him) he claimed back more than I thought available which more than paid his modest fee!!!

Interestingly however the tribunal case linked above determined that the regulations imposed by HMRC are ultra vires (or beyond authority) by restricting applicants to one claim. It could also be argued that their stance on ‘completion’ is ultra vires too as can be evidenced in several tribunal decisions in the last year. 
 

I’m not sure why a professional would be able to claim more back as if you submit every invoice for materials I can’t see what else there is to claim but great if it made you some additional money. 
 

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

I wanted to wait fir BCO sign off but council insisted it was habitable with temp kitchen etc.. .

I have just had a conversation with the BC0 about exactly the some issue.

 

Apparently there is a maximum of three month time limit between habitation and Sign off. According to our Bco the house should be signed off 3 months after habitation. I'm afraid I laughed long and hard at that . Maybe too long and hard.

 

Anyone heard of that ?

[Pocster]

3 hours ago, joe90 said:

I wanted to wait fir BCO sign off but council insisted it was habitable with temp kitchen etc. This is exactly why I got my VAT claim done by a professional VAT reclaim guy (others here have used him) he claimed back more than I thought available which more than paid his modest fee!!!

When I live in it ( soon ) and ultimately pay council tax I.e habitable . Do I need to do anything more ? . My sign off will be by bco when I’m ready ; which will be years later .That all ok ?

Edited October 22, 2021 by pocster

[Pocster]

@ProDave you said something about a temporary habitation thing . Who do you get that from and how does that work ??

[newhome]

45 minutes ago, pocster said:

@ProDave you said something about a temporary habitation thing . Who do you get that from and how does that work ??

Ask building control. 
 

 

[Pocster]

28 minutes ago, newhome said:

Ask building control. 
 

 

But do I need it ? . I don’t want to trigger anything ( Hmrc wise ) . Or just do nothing ? . Move in , pay council tax ….