Ashp.. new chapter. Help pls.

[Onoff]

16 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

One feather in my cap... the tech dept have said that there was a design flaw, insomuch as the pump in my existing hydraulic unit, should not have been chosen for it/ its ott/ hence going into this high " gear " when it doesnt need to.

 

That probably means Jack Schidtt unless they want to put it in writing.

[dpmiller]

I wonder if somewhere in the house gets cold enough (can't remember where all the sensors are) overnight that you're getting in-house frost protection? I think that's 5 or 7C for the average programable stat...

[zoothorn]

5 hours ago, dpmiller said:

I wonder if somewhere in the house gets cold enough (can't remember where all the sensors are) overnight that you're getting in-house frost protection? I think that's 5 or 7C for the average programable stat...

Well that's an interesting angle dpm. But the room the internal sensor is in, gets never lower than 8*C. Its only the outside sensor's reading a tipping/ tripping point of 3*C that's of relevance to the damn frost cycle.
 

Hence my idea of building a temporary ' bird box ' of insulation to climb a ladder every cold period & shove on the exterior sensor.. as a way to keep this damn 3*C figure at bay from it.

[zoothorn]

6 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

That probably means Jack Schidtt unless they want to put it in writing.

No understood. I only mention, because I sense this info I squeezed from them, when I push really hard... like they're letting me in on a ' behind the counter' fact. Not that it would ever ever be admitted, no way. Just a plus point to me. Helps me get confidence that my fight is entirely rational, logical. Nothing more.

[zoothorn]

Anyway Im once again told with certainty, that this Heat Exchange pump simply has only ' gear '. So thats all I have for surity.

 

So assuming this is a normal CH running ' gear' which wouldn't likely be anything fast/ high pitched/ high gear.. plus... my insistance (now I understand this pump exists & will be inside the bloody home) that this Heat Exchanger unit with it inside, NOT be put upstairs..

 

That hopefully will be sufficient, that when this fkn overnight frost mode innitiates (which it will bloody do/ nothing I can do to prevent it) the damn pump noise will be far enough away from bedrooms & possibly sufficiently unobtrusive.... to not be heard, at all, upstairs.
 

A worthwhile gamble. But, if the installers say the Heat Exchanger has to go upstairs... Urgh: I just cant accept this. I think surely they would understand if I kicked up a fuss after a year of this sh*t with this wretched thing upstairs ruining sleep in all bedrooms.

 

 

[ProDave]

Stop trying to beat yourself up understanding how it works.

 

Tell them you accept their offer of a replacement on the understanding the unit will not be excessively noisy in use, and when off at night, it will remain silent all night.

 

If they proceed on that understanding, you can get them to address it, if it is not so.

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

Stop trying to beat yourself up understanding how it works.

 

Tell them you accept their offer of a replacement on the understanding the unit will not be excessively noisy in use, and when off at night, it will remain silent all night.

 

If they proceed on that understanding, you can get them to address it, if it is not so.

Hi ProDave, but it will - not - be silent at night. This is the damndest thing. Its the same software in this other ashp, meaning it also will do this overnight frost cycle monstrosity.
 

ONLY thing different, I am only 'told' so, is this pump "will be quieter" a chap says. I had an engineer here a year ago, actually replaced the pump said "ooh thats quieter eh?" (yes muggins said, at 4pm). A week later 3am.. the fkn same "high gear" night noise. Cant trust a word.

 

So my confidence in what they say... zero. So how it works, via details of the pump types Ive demanded is the only way I can get confidence this new pump, put in the exact spot as the old unit's no doubt ( with same software, engaging same wretched overnight cycle), WILL POSSIBLY be quieter... is to pore over techy pump details possibly even calling the pump mfr, to get certainty, that it DOES only have one "gear" therefore diferent from my prior system's ghastly pump.. & possibly bearable overnight.

 

If I cant extract this info.. then its as much a chance the new system will be identical, to the old one. They've repeatedly said over a year " this will fix it, definitely". The same. Another engineer comes, tries. The same. Another, the same. Im left to plead with the next one (head UK engineer, two chaps here, new pcb boards in hand ) "I promise you, issue WILL BE solved today ", the same. April. Not heard back since.

 

Now you get the full picture of the fight Ive had. Ontop of the stress of sleep deprivation. A triumph to get them to replace ... but will it be the sodding same is the nagging q.

 

 

[Onoff]

4 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Ontop of the stress of sleep deprivation.

 

Tell me about it!

 

Went to bed, cat scratched at door waking me up. Got up and let him in. Cat sat on the bedside table, I went back to sleep. Cat trod on my head waking me up. Went back to sleep. Awoken again by the cat projectile vomitting across the duvet, I woke up, shooed it out, changed the bedding. Went back to sleep. SWMBO came to bed waking me up. Went back to sleep. No.1 son woke me up as he came up the stairs to his bedroom after an all night gaming session.

 

Genuine offer to swap one wife, son (c/w degree) and a vomitting tabby for your ASHP. I'll flog it on and buy insulation.

 

?

 

 

 

 

[dpmiller]

SO many things about the current system a proper heating engineer could check...

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, dpmiller said:

SO many things about the current system a proper heating engineer could check...

Dpm, you're suggesting there's a fault someone could come check, & fix. It is firmly established there isn't a fault/ that this mode is how both mine, & the proposed ashp is designed/ you cannot change it/ or it would've been fixed after 10 engineer visits.

 

The only thing to check by any engineer, is the software, in germany, telling this damn system to come noisily alive overnight.. that means a retrofit of every similar ashp sold. Which they won't do. Which they tried in vain to do on mine. What they tell me they -are- doing, is a big meeting to discuss how NOT to include this design distaster in their ashp's, sold from now on. But that cannot help mine. Nor can the replacement if its made prior to this potential 2022 redesign.

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by zoothorn

[Roundtuit]

6 hours ago, Onoff said:

 a vomitting tabby

Not fit fur purpose...

[Nickfromwales]

On 11/10/2021 at 09:55, zoothorn said:

To sum up: If this new pump is gonna do frost protection, with a pump ( tech pg tells me it will ), in the same location as my old suitcase box.... how can I not still be concerned?

OK.

Because a Welsh fella is TELLING YOU NOT TO BE!!.

Flush the shit-heap of a system that you have there currently completely from your brain. Do some Yoga or whatever to rinse this completely from your soul. It is no longer a subject for discussion. There is no future in this past, Chinese confucius says......"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."

Breathe in through the nose....and out through the mouth. There.......Better?

 

The box of shart that makes all the pump and COMPRRESSOR noise is being replaced by a heating pump which is nigh-on silent, and the compressor will now live OUTSIDE.  Forget the gears, and frost noo-nah etc, 'twill be a thing of the past shortly.

 

So;

If the NEW unit needs to 'defrost' then the external unit ( now full of glycol infused brine ) will request heat ( even the cold water in your rads will be considered heat at that time ) and then the system will come on and reverse the normal operation to aid in a fast defrost cycle. That will ( bloody well SHOULD ) only happen when you are in a heating or DHW cycle and the unit runs to the point of freezing up. Again, SHOULD, but realistically SHOULD NOT be to any degree of significance  because of the glycol ergo it should only be the 'radiator' part of the unit that freezes up ( not the whole thing turning to a block of ice ), BUT and MOST IMPORTANTLY you do not use the heating or hot water at night ergo the new unit cannot go into DEFROST cycle. It may go into FROST PROTECTION and start up and run ( which would be then identical to if you have turned CH on to run ) but only at the absolute minimum heat output to stave off the unit then going on to freezing from atmospheric conditions.

 

The problem will go away. If it doesn't I will come there myself and beat the fcuking thing into submission, personally. Using a severed heating installers limb as a club of course.

 

Stop typing here, reply to Vaillant to get the new system fitted, and then reply here ONLY ONCE IT'S IN and WORKING and NOT BEFORE. "Capiche?"  

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Nickfromwales

[zoothorn]

@Nickfromwales  I understand everything up to "capishe".

[MikeSharp01]

12 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I understand everything up to "capishe"

That's the whole idea then!

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

That's the whole idea then!

Alas not. It was one my alltime favourite lines, from Butters in South Park. He was with his whores, & some homie spieling a long homie dirge.. & he ended up saying this. Ive just always wanted to say it.

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

OK.

Because a Welsh fella is TELLING YOU NOT TO BE!!.

Flush the shit-heap of a system that you have there currently completely from your brain. Do some Yoga or whatever to rinse this completely from your soul. It is no longer a subject for discussion. There is no future in this past, Chinese confucius says......"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."

Breathe in through the nose....and out through the mouth. There.......Better?

 

The box of shart that makes all the pump and COMPRRESSOR noise is being replaced by a heating pump which is nigh-on silent, and the compressor will now live OUTSIDE.  Forget the gears, and frost noo-nah etc, 'twill be a thing of the past shortly.

 

So;

If the NEW unit needs to 'defrost' then the external unit ( now full of glycol infused brine ) will request heat ( even the cold water in your rads will be considered heat at that time ) and then the system will come on and reverse the normal operation to aid in a fast defrost cycle. That will ( bloody well SHOULD ) only happen when you are in a heating or DHW cycle and the unit runs to the point of freezing up. Again, SHOULD, but realistically SHOULD NOT be to any degree of significance  because of the glycol ergo it should only be the 'radiator' part of the unit that freezes up ( not the whole thing turning to a block of ice ), BUT and MOST IMPORTANTLY you do not use the heating or hot water at night ergo the new unit cannot go into DEFROST cycle. It may go into FROST PROTECTION and start up and run ( which would be then identical to if you have turned CH on to run ) but only at the absolute minimum heat output to stave off the unit then going on to freezing from atmospheric conditions.

 

The problem will go away. If it doesn't I will come there myself and beat the fcuking thing into submission, personally. Using a severed heating installers limb as a club of course.

 

Stop typing here, reply to Vaillant to get the new system fitted, and then reply here ONLY ONCE IT'S IN and WORKING and NOT BEFORE. "Capiche?"  

 

 

Erm, Im afraid I don't capiche Nick. Your too fast. 

 

No, I might not be correct on some things, but I know that the compressor has never been cause of the overnight issue. It doesn't come on overnight. But If it did, it would be at its one running speed- fairly unobtrusive (not sleep-ruiningly high speed).. but it doesn't/ hasn't ever overnight, because, Its in the setback mode & the compressor is only active ( in my system 100% fact ) only.. when its doing heating duties. I set heating 7 am to 9 pm. 

 

What is not clear, still, is what the problem pump is doing at 3 am. Therefore what the new system's pump will do, which will be in the same place bar a few inches. And I know it will go into the same frost mode. I still do not know, what this pump will do, whether it will do anything, if it does do something... what exactly? IE pumping - what - around - where-? And - why-?
 

During the frost mode: Is the pump pushing glycol around the outside unit, just happening to do so from the inside unit? THIS is the only logic, to me. I was desperate for them to tell me simply " yes " ( bc that would mean the new system, with this particular pump resigned to the outside inside the monoblock, can do wtf it wants, outside, st 3 am, Im not disturbed). BUT Im told no, the system/ the frost mode pump noise is not it pumping anything around the outside unit but pumping -water- around -inside- rads. That is lunacy. Illogical. Bonkers. But Im told this is what its doing..

 

So I cannot make any sense, of anything it is doing, in this fkn frost mode ((So: I dont know wtf the new pump will do at 3am: so: how can I say " sure, great, go ahead & fit the replacement ashp please ".??)).

Now I have to say to you- capiche?

[zoothorn]

I am waiting on their top head engineer to call me. To explain this frost mode, why its not pushing anti-frost stuff around frost-prone hardware at 3am once it hits 3*C & below... why its not doing this, most logical duty you & me & anyone might expect.... but instead instead instead ( so Im told, absolutely, catagorically, by their renewables tech team who know these systems tip to toe) why its solely pushing water around rads inside the home, which cannot be frost-prone if inside at never ever ever below a minimum 8*C coldest winter room temp.

 

If he confirms this is indeed, what it does, then Im in the same fkn boat with the new replacement system. The only caveat/ ray of hope being, that their renewables chaps tell me this new pump only has one running speed/ will be quiet/ cannot ramp up to a high pitch motor abominable noise. They say. Just their word. When their words often mean total nonsensical gibberish. Or the system is gibberish design.

 

How can I make rational judgement among all this nonsense??

[dpmiller]

You could start by understanding the plumbing of the central heating system in the house and how this interacts hydraulically and electrically with the (totally seperate) ASHP gubbins?

 

Thermostats

Zone Valves

Bypass valves

motorised valves

Non return valves

TRVs

CH circulating pump(s) 

 

and confirming where exactly all the flow and temperature sensors for the ASHP are installed in relation to the above.

 

Remember that the flashy boffin-top-engineer types that work for the manufacturer only know *their* bit inside out. Not whatever disaster of copper may have been shoehorned in by your so-called "installers"

[zoothorn]

55 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

You could start by understanding the plumbing of the central heating system in the house and how this interacts hydraulically and electrically with the (totally seperate) ASHP gubbins?

 

Thermostats

Zone Valves

Bypass valves

motorised valves

Non return valves

TRVs

CH circulating pump(s) 

 

and confirming where exactly all the flow and temperature sensors for the ASHP are installed in relation to the above.

 

Remember that the flashy boffin-top-engineer types that work for the manufacturer only know *their* bit inside out. Not whatever disaster of copper may have been shoehorned in by your so-called "installers"

Hi dpm. I couldn't possibly wade through all those aspects, & with respect it's only this one device - a pump- that I need to understand simply what it's doing for all intents & purposes, for this thread.
 

What its doing is not created by the installers. The installers have no sway in whether this pump activates, nor at what time it activates, nor what speed/ noise it makes when it does so. Even if they put the hardware in, they are not responsible for design aspects, individual companies' ( eg Milo ) devices forming part of the system, or software programs telling the bits they've put in, to do various functions.

 

It is, it can only logically be, the responsibility of the designer & overall manufacturer of the system. Which is why I have approached without one exception over a whole year, Vaillant, who at last have agreed to replace it, not the installers.
 

I am simply trying to understand how the flying fk this pump, in this frost mode, functions. And how this one currently might differ from the proposed replacement. One unit, size of a coffee bag. Nothing else. But it is proving absolutely impossible.

[zoothorn]

This email I have just received from Vaillant.

-----

Hello, Mr Zooter-Tooter,

I have spoken to Alan about the issues that you are currently experiencing. We maintain that the best way forward would be to fit an aroTHERM/3 with a hex unit. On one of the visits, you suggested that a suitable location would be the utility room. This would mean pipework alteration between the hex unit and your cylinder. We would not alter pipework ourselves but will inform the installer of the changes needed. I have listed the pros and cons below. 

The pro are as follows

1. Pump runs at one speed and can be set on install

2. Able to keep the same controls

3. Less hydraulic vibration through pipework

The cons are as follows

1. Unit still has an anti-frost protection mode and will use the indoor pump when required

2. Extra plumbing and wiring required (expansion vessels, diverter valve, interface)

3. No backup heater

I hope this helps to clarify what we are offering with a unit swap. The other option would be to wait until Germany provide a software update, however as previously stated this will not be looked into until at least Q2 2022. Please advise how you wish to continue. 

Kind Regards,
Liam Brooks
Commercial & Renewable products aftersales support.

 

----

 

As the part in bold, i highlighted, is the crux, & this VAGUE part of the reply tells me absolutely NOTHING, STILL of the specifics I am desperately trying to establish, this mini fight continues. I asked twice, two different people, to pls get their head engineer to email me/ call me (the one who visited in april). But this is not this Alan person.
 

So I have to ask again, again, again, for clarity on this damn overnight mode, what this new pump, in this mode, will do differently to the one its to replace/ how can i be reassured i will not be disturbed by this system's pump, at 3AM too, in order to accept this replacement system. Exhausting. 
 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Liam Brooks
Commercial & Renewable products aftersales support.

Poor (expletive deleted)er having to deal with this.

[Gone West]

@zoothorn If it were me I would just have it fitted and then use Nick's guarantee if needed.

16 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

The problem will go away. If it doesn't I will come there myself and beat the fcuking thing into submission, personally.

 

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, Gone West said:

16 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

The problem will go away. If it doesn't I will come there myself and beat the fcuking thing into submission, personally.

Women and walnut trees eh

[zoothorn]

18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Poor (expletive deleted)er having to deal with this.

Poor me having to deal with this fkn shite morelike st.

 

no help from you, on the contrary in fact. Why post unless you intend to help?

 

why? Replies like this add to this dire frustration of 10 fkn visits " we'll fix it" when theres nothing to fix, then 7 months no communication whsts so fkn ever. Then i hsve to contend with replies like yours. Jesush makes myblood boil.

[dpmiller]

45 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Hi dpm. I couldn't possibly wade through all those aspects, & with respect it's only this one device - a pump- that I need to understand simply what it's doing for all intents & purposes, for this thread

 

And also with respect,  you don't know with certainly that what you just typed is correct *unless* you wade through all the other stuff.

 

How do you know an in-house sensor isn't reading the temperature wrong, and telling the pump to run? You don't.

How do you know what flow restriction there is in the rest of the CH circuit that could be making the pump unnecessarly noisy if it *does* run at night time? Modern pumps automatically vary their speed- they don't have "gears", they're CVT automatics.

Can you be sure a zone valve isn't wired wrong and is forcing the unit on even when programmed off?

 

None of these things are inside the ASHP or in the manufacturer's pervue.