Ashp.. new chapter. Help pls.

[dpmiller]

Bear in mind that defrost and anti-frost are completely different things, not to be confused.

[ProDave]

26 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

I wonder if all this noise in anti-frost mode is because a motorvalve is closed (as there's no heat demand)?

There should be an automatic bypass valve for that, but sometimes an ABV can be noisy when passing.

[dpmiller]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

There should be an automatic bypass valve for that, but sometimes an ABV can be noisy when passing.

yep, could be so simple.

[zoothorn]

50 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

I wonder if all this noise in anti-frost mode is because a motorvalve is closed (as there's no heat demand)?

Very good point. Thanks for this.

 

Well Im not sure, but what I know, is I do not want my rads on overnight ( said before, I don't see how anyone would/ have never known anyone in my 50 years have rads on at night ). So my heat times are set 7 am to 9 pm. 
 

I asked if setting my off time to 9 pm is a normal request of this system. Yes. And there is a symbol on controller, a crescent moon, signifying night mode. Now this tells me it is designed to be programmed, should I want to/ as every normal person in my book would, for the rads to stop twds end of the night. An hour earlier for me than yow at 9pm.. cos Im £ struggling. 
 

Now Ive noticed, that even at 9am, 2 hours after my rads have turned on... my rooms are very cold. It takes until  midday to get some warmth in. But, it is still not conjusive to my wallet, my want, the polar bears "oop north", to be forced into keeping the rads on 24/7, just to to get warmth in my bedroom at 8 am.

 

So. Im my opinion, heat pumps are pretty much useless unless you like to sweat buckets in bed at night & like killing polar bears. I hate this, so I cannot have a warm room 8 am. Got used to it. I use a £5 fan heater, take from bedroom to kitchen to bathroom, bypassing the hopeless system/ radiators just waking up at 8 am. Just like I did before i had no CH system. Nuts. 

 

In the evening, late afternoon... having got up to speed, the system can be effective. Especially in my 1 new insulated bedroom (tho rest of house its inneffective/ rooms cold bc no insulation, which I knew would be the case before system put in ).

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

15 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

Bear in mind that defrost and anti-frost are completely different things, not to be confused.

I don't think defrost has been in the offing. If itgot to a defrost situation, id surely have messed up!

[TonyT]

What size are they planning on fitting?

 

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/product-brochures/arotherm-brochure-2006193.pdf

 

[TonyT]

Page 30 from them gives a house size indicator- based on the your house using their spreadsheet what size would you hope to see installed?

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by TonyT

[zoothorn]

44 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Page 30 from them gives a house size indicator- based on the your house using their spreadsheet what size would you hope to see installed?

 

 

Perfectly good q Tony, they have simply stated they're willing to replace with an arotherm3. It must be assumed, that with 10 visits & all emails/ calls they know what size is in, so just replace it with the same 'power' new one. Presumably.

 

If i say i wanna 4! they say fk u!

 

I think the 3 is a level of power... but if not, you get my point.

 

 

[TonyT]

No not really, now is the time to minimise the grief during and after the next installation- time to be a bit more proactive.

 

the table I linked to should advise you of what they plan to install, all you need to do is work out the size of your home and decide it’s age and double glazed level etc.
 

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

No not really, now is the time to minimise the grief during and after the next installation- time to be a bit more proactive.

 

the table I linked to should advise you of what they plan to install, all you need to do is work out the size of your home and decide it’s age and double glazed level etc.
 

Hi Tony, I understand your point, in am ideal world Id have the luxury of deciding the size. But these calculations have been done, by the installers in order to put in the current system. So all Vaillant are proposing, is get installers to fit an an Arotherm3, the same power/ size as mine. 
 

If your point is that you consider mine now to be -underpowered- based on being cold here in most rooms despite the CH being on, this is not due to it being underpowered.. it's purely down to the absence of insulation & cold ingress (UP from floors which isn't easy to tackle: even a bigger powered one couldn't possibly heat this house : apart from that is, one new modern room, where the CH works well albeit only from afternoon on as it takes half a day to get up to speed from 7 am when heating goes on) not insufficient calculations.

Edited October 9, 2021 by zoothorn

[Roundtuit]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

But these calculations have been done, by the installers in order to put in the current system.

 

Yeah....maybe just ask them to check before causing you more upheaval though...

[joe90]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

this is not due to it being underpowered.. it's purely down to the absence of insulation & cold ingress

Zoot, that is wrong, it is underpowered if it’s not “fit fir purpose” I.e. the size of the house and it’s insulation levels give you a figure that any heating system has to produce to heat that space. If your house needs 10kW to heat it then a 5KW system is underpowered.

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

Zoot, that is wrong, it is underpowered if it’s not “fit fir purpose” I.e. the size of the house and it’s insulation levels give you a figure that any heating system has to produce to heat that space. If your house needs 10kW to heat it then a 5KW system is underpowered.

No ok I understand your point. But the thing is, this house just isn't suitable for an ashp. They knew this, told me, &, I knew this. But how could I say " no thanks" to the offer of any CH system if they were dishing them out? i bent their arm, somehow. Ok if they'd whacked in a huge thing double the power... I couldn't afford to run it. Why not then just run this one at a higher output, which is what im doing, but even still it cant heat my main room with two big rads in... even slightly. 

 

It really is down to this house not being suitable for an ashp. They are designed for very well insulated homes, to be run at a low output, continuously (apart from night time, in my opinion.. but you guys say it is). They are just not suitable for the majority of uk homes I now know in retrospect. But,how could i say no even if it means i'm only able to heat one room properly with it as only I can do, If it adds good value to the house as Im renovating it? prospective buyers will view in summer, most likely, unnaware its next to useless in winter. Then it was the right decision despite not being at all effective in most of the house (!!), if & only if, I didn't have the choice of anything else.. because I havent £8k to spare on a gas CH.

 

If my house is t suitable, the reason can only be that it just isn't insulated at all ( bar loft fluff ). I cannot see any other logic John, with respect.

[joe90]

Anyone else like to contribute to zoot s post above.

[Gone West]

7 hours ago, zoothorn said:

have never known anyone in my 50 years have rads on at night

You have now, as we have always run our CH 24/7 whatever fuel was being used.

 

28 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

It really is down to this house not being suitable for an ashp.

I tend to agree and would never swap my oil boiler for an ASHP because with 650mm thick stone walls I would never feel comfortable. I looked at the Vaillant website and couldn't find an Arotherm3 so guess that the 3 refers to the third most powerful in the series which if IIRC is 11kW.

[TonyT]

47 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Anyone else like to contribute to zoot s post above.

I’m done, thought this thread would be different to the first painful one.

[Onoff]

21 minutes ago, TonyT said:

thought this thread would be different 

 

 

Can you guess what he's saying? ?

 

 

[joe90]

43 minutes ago, Gone West said:

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

It really is down to this house not being suitable for an ashp.

I tend to agree

I don’t understand that, any boiler, whatever fuel has an output of a measured amount, if a house requires a boiler of 10kW to heat it adequately it makes no difference if that 10kW comes from electricity, gas or oil. The limiting factor with an ASHP is the lower temperature of the water it produces therefore bigger radiators are required or UFH. but the output is still 10kW. I have a neighbour that has an old house and he installed an ASHP, yes it’s three times the size (output) of mine but I have three times the level of insulation.

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I don’t understand that, any boiler, whatever fuel has an output of a measured amount, if a house requires a boiler of 10kW to heat it adequately it makes no difference if that 10kW comes from electricity, gas or oil. The limiting factor with an ASHP is the lower temperature of the water it produces therefore bigger radiators are required or UFH. but the output is still 10kW. I have a neighbour that has an old house and he installed an ASHP, yes it’s three times the size (output) of mine but I have three times the level of insulation.

A classic case of A=A

 

But air tightness is another factor....

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Marvin
minor change.

[zoothorn]

40 minutes ago, Gone West said:

You have now, as we have always run our CH 24/7 whatever fuel was being used.

 

I tend to agree and would never swap my oil boiler for an ASHP because with 650mm thick stone walls I would never feel comfortable. I looked at the Vaillant website and couldn't find an Arotherm3 so guess that the 3 refers to the third most powerful in the series which if IIRC is 11kW.

Well Ive never lived in a house with CH on at night, never stayed in one be it a b&b or hotel, or known anyone who had rads on overnight: the idea of a hot bedroom when you are by nature, unless a naturist, under a duvet doesn't make sense. But this is just horses for courses.

 

Yes that might be true of the 11 kw good point. Ive yet to say yes, prior to that asking what kw they had in mind... but for this thread, prior to that, all I was asking about was the pump thing- the most important aspect to me considering the problem I outlined in #1.

 

I think Ive got some clarity on that, so thanks best put a line under it then as I'm back again at loggerheads disagreeing on aspects not  actually in need to discuss!

 

Thanks, zoot

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I'm back again at loggerheads disagreeing on aspects not  actually in need to discuss!

Fair point but you made a statement that is not true, and we are just trying to help you understand how these things work, before I designed this house I had no idea how an ASHP worked so I read copious amounts and followed others (especially Jeremy Harris) in their threads and blogs to understand what I needed to do. I designed my own heating system and it’s a bit different to most but works well (phew).

[Onoff]

It's astounding / time is fleeting / madness takes its toll ...

[Gone West]

13 hours ago, joe90 said:

I don’t understand that, any boiler, whatever fuel has an output of a measured amount, if a house requires a boiler of 10kW to heat it adequately it makes no difference if that 10kW comes from electricity, gas or oil. The limiting factor with an ASHP is the lower temperature of the water it produces therefore bigger radiators are required or UFH. but the output is still 10kW. I have a neighbour that has an old house and he installed an ASHP, yes it’s three times the size (output) of mine but I have three times the level of insulation.

I agree that it doesn't matter whether the energy comes from electricity, gas or oil but I think it's more complicated than that. IMHO it is the temperature of the water that is important and the differential between the air and water temperature. In a well insulated house the differential can be low with very little convection and the environment feels comfortable. In my current house I don't believe that even with a very large surface area of radiators at 45C the house would feel comfortable. I'm not going to spend thousands experimenting, I'll just insulate as much as I can to reduce the oil consumption.

[joe90]

27 minutes ago, Gone West said:

I agree that it doesn't matter whether the energy comes from electricity, gas or oil but I think it's more complicated than that. IMHO it is the temperature of the water that is important and the differential between the air and water temperature. In a well insulated house the differential can be low with very little convection and the environment feels comfortable. In my current house I don't believe that even with a very large surface area of radiators at 45C the house would feel comfortable. I'm not going to spend thousands experimenting, I'll just insulate as much as I can to reduce the oil consumption.

I do understand that. In our previous temporary house we had no insulation at all but had a gas  boiler that made the radiators nearly glow but as soon as they went off the temp plummeted. My other half thought it was nice to feel the heat but overall the house was cooler than our new build. The house I just finished stays a constant 20 to 22’ thanks to insulation and airtightness but she feels “cool” and asks fir the heating to be turned up or the woodburner fired up (which leads to 25’ in the lounge). This house, despite being all electric and being nearly twice the size costs half to heat etc.

[zoothorn]

14 hours ago, joe90 said:

Fair point but you made a statement that is not true, and we are just trying to help you understand how these things work, before I designed this house I had no idea how an ASHP worked so I read copious amounts and followed others (especially Jeremy Harris) in their threads and blogs to understand what I needed to do. I designed my own heating system and it’s a bit different to most but works well (phew).

What statement Ive made isn't true? (If ever a quote is needed.. ).

 

Im tempting fate by being a lone voice, but in terms of discussion (not argument, esp with you) I do have to stick up for myself.

 

I read all available info on my ashp. Tech details in pdf. I tried to understand the basics on youtube clips. That's about average, for any customer, & what is expected prior to it being fitted. There was no mention of keeping it on 24/7. There was mention of noise only from the outside unit which isn't noisy, but NO mention of inside unit noise. So then: the info isn't fit for purpose ( let alone the hardware, which is proven to be NFFP if Vaillant are ripping it out, whilst it is -- i think & I'm 99% sure now-- proven to be running without any fault).

 

Also, recently I saw an excellent youtube clip, summing up ashp's limitations. An experienced UK builder whose clips Ive trusted implicitly & followed for other jobs. His core point, is these systems for majority of Uk homes is hopeless, because we just don't have adequate insulation unlike scandinavia when a gnats' ammount of heat can suffice to heat rooms. This angle, Ive simply reitterated, because it fits - exactly- why my ashp is fairly useless to heat my house... bar the two insulated rooms (but only works post midday). Insulate Britain... they don't half have a point!
 

I can't change my insulation in my cottage (without huge expense & ruining its chsracter), or change the fact the ground floor rooms sit on clay, without a cm of insulation, next to a water course meaning -in my opinon/ theory- with the ground generally retaining water especially in winter = a particularly cold clay slab my house sits upon (& next door C19 cottage reknown for being ungodly cold forcing out previous owner, because of the cold no less, just ours are next to this big stream). 
 

The floor insultion, or lack of it, & it simply feels (because my legs are 1st to get cold) like a huge ammount of cold is coming UP... this lack of insulstion could not be calculated in any survey. Wall cavities could. So a guess was made, probably re floor insulation. This guess falls sooooo faaaaar short: & IMHO this is the core reason this ashp cannot contend with the house cold. Not, because any calculations haven't been done, or Im running it wrong, or it's not quite powerful enough ( its now running above its capacity by a good chunk, but this upping has made no difference whatsoever so much cold just sits on the ground like a dry ice fog it cannot counter).