Too much expanding foam?

[dave1899]

Hi all,

 

I hope someone can help.

 

Recently noticed that the door that was recently fitted by our builder looks like it's bursting out of the wall!  

 

The builder said that it's just not finished and that the trim around the edge still needs to go on, but my suspicion is that they've put too much expanding foam into the side of the door frame.  The render appears to bow outwards. 

 

Any views on this would be greatly appreciated.

[dave1899]

[dave1899]

The door has recently started catching slightly at the top as well which suggests to me that the frame has shifted.  I'm sure I would've noticed this before.  

 

I'm sure that the builder will attempt to simply patch it up with a bit of uPVC. 

[Marvin]

Is it the render edge that is straight or the door frame? Is the door vertical in the frame?

 

Don't think the foam would have bent the frame,  however may be the frame was not fixed solidly enough at the top hinge position and bowed with the weight of the door. 

 

Spirit level time....

[dave1899]

Hi Marvin. Thanks for your response. 

 

The door frame appears to be straight and level. It's the render beading that looks like it's being pushed out.  It is noticeably bowed and spirit level confirms it's not straight.

 

The rendering was really neat when it first went on and I'm sure the renderer did not install the beading in this shape.

 

Would the slow expansion of the foam be enough to push it out without cracking the render?

[Big Jimbo]

in my expierence expanding foam can easily bend a upc frame. I have done it myself on a 2 mt tall window. A level and a straight edge will allow you to see if the frame has been bent.

[markc]

+1 on the above, I’ve seen foam lift a thick slate fireplace off its bed, a poorly fixed pvc frame is easily distorted

[dave1899]

40 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

in my expierence expanding foam can easily bend a upc frame. I have done it myself on a 2 mt tall window. A level and a straight edge will allow you to see if the frame has been bent.

Thanks for your reply

 

The uPVC door frame is pretty much level and straight. It's the render beading that is distorted. Strangely the render isn't cracked.

 

I'm pretty sure that the renderer didn't install it bowed so my only thought was that the expanding foam has pushed it away from the wall.  But then surely there would be cracks in the wall. 

 

It's quite confusing. 

 

[dave1899]

51 minutes ago, markc said:

+1 on the above, I’ve seen foam lift a thick slate fireplace off its bed, a poorly fixed pvc frame is easily distorted

Wow that's impressive.  My initial thought was that it's pushed the render bead away from the frame rather than distort the frame itself.  But then I would expect the render to crack? 

[Mr Punter]

This is why the window people tend to specify low expansion foam, although lots of people carry on with the standard stuff.

[MJNewton]

9 hours ago, dave1899 said:

The door frame appears to be straight and level. It's the render beading that looks like it's being pushed out.  It is noticeably bowed and spirit level confirms it's not straight.

 

In what plane(s) is it bowed?

 

It looks from the picture that it is certainly bowed away from the door frame (which you've confirmed is itself straight) but has it also bowed away from the wall too i.e. is your rendered wall bulging out?

 

If it's just the former then perhaps the intended trim is indeed going to cover it. How big is the gap in the middle? If it will be covered, and the trim isn't a monstrosity, then that might be preferable to taking any other action (e.g. raking out the foam, removing the beading and render and redoing) in terms of the aesthetics of the end result. If it is bowed out from the wall then that would make me worry there's a void behind it now and that might cause issues in the future, but then that's the sort of thing I like to worry about and cause myself stress over...

 

P.S. Forgot to add - the render (and the bead in the particularly) might well always have been bent and it is only the addition of the (straight) door that has now highlighted this. It's not something you'd necessarily notice if you're not actively looking for it, which again is something I do just to wind myself up.

Edited September 10, 2021 by MJNewton

[Temp]

I've accidentally done something similar.  Worse case it will be render and render board off to repair and replace.

 

Could try dissolving the foam with a solvent? Try it on some scraps made for the purpose first.

 

 

[dave1899]

38 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

In what plane(s) is it bowed?

 

It looks from the picture that it is certainly bowed away from the door frame (which you've confirmed is itself straight) but has it also bowed away from the wall too i.e. is your rendered wall bulging out?

 

If it's just the former then perhaps the intended trim is indeed going to cover it. How big is the gap in the middle? If it will be covered, and the trim isn't a monstrosity, then that might be preferable to taking any other action (e.g. raking out the foam, removing the beading and render and redoing) in terms of the aesthetics of the end result. If it is bowed out from the wall then that would make me worry there's a void behind it now and that might cause issues in the future, but then that's the sort of thing I like to worry about and cause myself stress over...

 

P.S. Forgot to add - the render (and the bead in the particularly) might well always have been bent and it is only the addition of the (straight) door that has now highlighted this. It's not something you'd necessarily notice if you're not actively looking for it, which again is something I do just to wind myself up.

 

The render does seem to bulge out from the wall as well as away from the door frame. 

 

Could the render actually bulge like that without instantly cracking?  If it's possible that the render could flex then i'd be confident that it's the foam that's caused it.  

 

I just think it's unlikely that the beading went on bowed. I would have noticed. 

 

The render went on before the door was fitted. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by dave1899

[dave1899]

19 minutes ago, Temp said:

I've accidentally done something similar.  Worse case it will be render and render board off to repair and replace.

 

Could try dissolving the foam with a solvent? Try it on some scraps made for the purpose first.

 

 

Did the render bend without cracking?

[Temp]

In my case it was plasterboard that became "pregnant" when I put too much expanding foam in the wall. Had to remove it as not enough access to try dissolving it.

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, dave1899 said:

 

Could the render actually bulge like that without instantly cracking?  If it's possible that the render could flex then i'd be confident that it's the foam that's caused it.  

 

I could imagine it could actually - the bound render effectively becomes a sheet and it wouldn't surprise me if it could gradually bend without cracking.

 

Does it sound hollow when tapped? 

Edited September 10, 2021 by MJNewton

[Onoff]

This, specifically low expansion, Soudal stuff is great imho. Sticky too. I've used it to stick say EPS sheet to brick with just a couple of bricks to hold the EPS in place whilst it sets. Spraying the substrates / gap with water from a plant sprayer helps with any foam I think. 

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/soudal-soudafoam-expanding-foam-gun-grade-750ml/5026D?

[dave1899]

1 hour ago, MJNewton said:

 

I could imagine it could actually - the bound render effectively becomes a sheet and it wouldn't surprise me if it could gradually bend without cracking.

 

Does it sound hollow when tapped? 

Thanks very much for this.

 

I've just been out and tapped away at the wall and it's definitely hollow underneath where the render should be attached to the blockwork.  I should imagine this could cause problems in future. 

 

I think this answers my question. I will be getting the builder to fix it.  

[Pocster]

Many years ago when expanding foam was new I bought some and filled a hole . As it expanded at a zillion times I used my bare hands to push it back in . Took months to have usable hands again .

[Faz]

31 minutes ago, pocster said:

Many years ago when expanding foam was new I bought some and filled a hole . As it expanded at a zillion times I used my bare hands to push it back in . Took months to have usable hands again .

I thought your hands were used to being a bit 'sticky'?

 

Back to the op - I imagine the foam has gone on from the inside - shouldn't be enough to blow the render - you might want to be tapping the whole lot to see if it has bonded properly.

[Pocster]

2 minutes ago, Faz said:

I thought your hands were used to being a bit 'sticky'?

My reputation precedes me ! ? 

[Faz]

Spare a thought for my poor plumber - I had been extolling the virtues of gun grade foam (which he hadn't used before tbh) and he hooked up a can of 'No Nonsense' crap that exploded all over him - I tried to help but was mainly just pissing myself with laughter.

 

He looked like a snowman - in July...

 

Moral of the story - get decent foam.

[Onoff]

I decided rather than buy the proper, corrugated foam strips to seal the ends of bitumen sheets on a garage, I'd use gun foam. Worked OK.

 

Neighbour saw me doing it and decided to "insulate" the door on the side of his caravan that housed the battery. Cue him buying a new door! Foam blew it apart.

 

[Faz]

That is the difference between gun grade and rattle can foam - at least with the gun you drop in what is needed allowing for expansion.  Unless the whole lot blows up in your face as you screw the tin to the gun!

[Onoff]

9 minutes ago, Faz said:

Unless the whole lot blows up in your face as you screw the tin to the gun!

 

Or like in the case of the can of Everbuild foam I had from TS (once) it was so bloody long and heavy it snapped off the gun.