Not enough glue in 22mm Egger Chipboard installation?

[Adsibob]

15 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Yes, it can be a double-edged sword.

You need to pull this guy to one side, and have a quiet chat away from the build so he takes you a little more seriously. He will likely be a little more humble then too.

In terms of moving forward, you now need a solid deck and nothing more really, so options need bringing to the table.

Thanks @Nickfromwales you and the others here have given me the confidence to do something about this.

 

15 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

IMHO you have only one option at this stage, and that is to get the builder to screw these boards down, 5 screws per 600mm joist line with them starting and finishing 50mm away from the tongues / grooves. You need to stipulate to this chap that the screws need to be JUST pulled just under flush with the top surface of the boards and not smashed through thus losing all purchase.

Do you think lifting the floor in one piece (the two rooms they have done are 3.6m by 4.7m and and 3.6m by 5m) is just not feasible because either the floor will break/bend, or the glue will cure quicker than they can lower it down again?

[DragsterDriver]

His idea will be ‘point’ the edges underneath using a cartridge gun for show. Building regs want to see glue spilling out underneath- has this fella been living in a cave the past few years?

[DragsterDriver]

6 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Thanks @Nickfromwales you and the others here have given me the confidence to do something about this.

 

Do you think lifting the floor in one piece (the two rooms they have done are 3.6m by 4.7m and and 3.6m by 5m) is just not feasible because either the floor will break/bend, or the glue will cure quicker than they can lower it down again?

It’s madness. 
 

So 25 boards in total-ish? I’d tell him to lift them, take them home to dispose of them  and fit new ones in their place properly. Maybe they won’t cut other corners then.

[joe90]

If your guy does not do as he is told/informed, what else is he going to do In Future. I could not trust someone like that to work fir me.

[PeterW]

If they aren’t glued together either then they will easily lift off the joists and away. It’s a fairly big job to lift the floor but can be done. 
 

The issue is the glue bond to the joist is part of the structural strength of the posijoists so it needs to be done for a lot of reasons. 

[Adsibob]

9 hours ago, willbish said:

Tape or additional glue isn't going to do anything.

 

All you can do is check sufficient fixings have been used and add any that are missing. Three per joist per board so 21 total. Floortite screws and not nails ideally 

 

I'm looking into these floortite screws. Which length is best to fix 22 Egger to posis? 45mm or 55mm? 

[Marvin]

I thought it was 3 times the thickness of the sheet as a rule, but this may have changed now...

[Adsibob]

10 minutes ago, Marvin said:

I thought it was 3 times the thickness of the sheet as a rule, but this may have changed now...

I think they only come in 45mm and 55mm length, so I guess it's the 55mm length I want...?

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

If they aren’t glued together either then they will easily lift off the joists and away. It’s a fairly big job to lift the floor but can be done. 
 

The issue is the glue bond to the joist is part of the structural strength of the posijoists so it needs to be done for a lot of reasons. 

Agreed. Which is why I say he should sample, at the joist tops, and if even a whiff of glue additional screws should seal the deal.

 

2 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Do you think lifting the floor in one piece (the two rooms they have done are 3.6m by 4.7m and and 3.6m by 5m) is just not feasible because either the floor will break/bend, or the glue will cure quicker than they can lower it down again?

Without samples, we don't know if the boards are glued or not. If they are, but it's minimal, the deck will have taken to the top chord. Attempting to part them would be a train wreck as the natural timber will split away and never seat back down evenly. The retro-added glue would just fill the voids and jack the floor up having the opposite to desired effect.

Sample time is now, eg before any more advice is possible.  

[Tom]

This sort of thing really gets my hackles up - and you know for sure the builders will be shaking their heads and raising their eyebrows at each other, simply because you are insisting on getting it done correctly. You can also be equally sure they won't be seen for dust after the build when your floor starts creaking...

OP, get it redone properly - yes, perhaps they might cut corners elsewhere to recoup the cost, but equally they will pay more attention when you next explain how you want something done.

[Marvin]

10 hours ago, Adsibob said:

I'm looking into these floortite screws. Which length is best to fix 22 Egger to posis? 45mm or 55mm? 

55mm 

[Adsibob]

Update: builder agreed to redo two rooms where he hadn’t put glue between floor joists and chipboard. That hasn’t been done yet, but will happen soon I’m told. In the meantime:

1)  I bought him loads of the blue floor tite screws and told him to use those instead of the regular screws he’s using; and

2) he’s done another room, this time he has clearly used glue in the right place but I remain concerned that it is the wrong glue. The video on caberdek’s site shows a glue that when it dries it foams slightly and dries like an opaque slightly off white colour, almost yellow. This glue has dried clear with no foaming, but maybe it is just Caber’s glue that does this, not Egger. See picture. They possibly also didn’t use two beads of glue as sometimes the glue has only dribbled out on one side of the joist. If I’m right about this, then it’s really just F-ing annoying. Getting closer to sacking territory. But given they have at least used floor tite screws this time, I wonder if using the wrong glue and possibly only one bead rather than two will matter?

Edited September 4, 2021 by Adsibob

[Cpd]

I may have missed something but shouldn’t there be glue obviously leaking from between the joints in the chipboard? 

[Adsibob]

3 minutes ago, Cpd said:

I may have missed something but shouldn’t there be glue obviously leaking from between the joints in the chipboard? 

Yes, you are probably right. This just gets from bad to worse.

[joe90]

11 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Yes, you are probably right. This just gets from bad to worse.

I think you are right, my floor had foamed glue all over the place. It tends to foam when moisture is about, if your timber is very dry it may not foam. I had beads of foam above and below the joints and dribbling from the top of the joists. Then again if plenty of screws are used yours should be tight.

Edited September 4, 2021 by joe90

[epsilonGreedy]

2 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Getting closer to sacking territory.

 

 

If your latest photo is the example of your builder trying to do things correctly following your initial complaint, then yes time to part ways.

 

He has not used the right glue because there is no evidence of any foaming, it looks like a thin contact adhesive. This is not just a caberdeck specific thing. When done correctly the fastidious self builder will spend an hour or two scraping the foam dribbles off the floor below.

 

 

[Mr Punter]

It was not so long ago that they did not use the PU foaming glue, just a PVA one on the t&g between the boards.  Nothing on top of the joists and the boards were fixed down with Paslode nails.  Most of these worked fine.

 

I have had some floors recently done with PU glue on joists plus screws and have had some squeaks.

 

Neither system is 100% but both are mostly good and squeaks can normally be solved by chucking in a box of screws.  Just check it before you put down the floor finish.

[Adsibob]

26 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

If your latest photo is the example of your builder trying to do things correctly following your initial complaint, then yes time to part ways.

 

He has not used the right glue because there is no evidence of any foaming, it looks like a thin contact adhesive. This is not just a caberdeck specific thing. When done correctly the fastidious self builder will spend an hour or two scraping the foam dribbles off the floor below.

 

 

Extremely close to sacking him over this and generally inability to follow instructions. He told me he was not doing this this week and then he did it anyway.

Only thing saving him from the sack right now is that I understand there is an extreme lack of labour these days.

[Adsibob]

19 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

It was not so long ago that they did not use the PU foaming glue, just a PVA one on the t&g between the boards.  Nothing on top of the joists and the boards were fixed down with Paslode nails.  Most of these worked fine.

 

I have had some floors recently done with PU glue on joists plus screws and have had some squeaks.

 

Neither system is 100% but both are mostly good and squeaks can normally be solved by chucking in a box of screws.  Just check it before you put down the floor finish.

You are probably right, but my concern is not just that there are no squeaks before floor finish goes down. I want no squeaks for the next 20 to 30 years. That's why I went with a product that has a "lifetime guarantee". I guess my only real option now is to double up on the floor tite screws. Egger also show that one can paint over the joins with their adhesive which appears to protect them from moisture ingress, so maybe we should do that as well.

[Cpd]

40 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

It was not so long ago that they did not use the PU foaming glue, just a PVA one on the t&g between the boards.  Nothing on top of the joists and the boards were fixed down with Paslode nails.  Most of these worked fine.

 

I have had some floors recently done with PU glue on joists plus screws and have had some squeaks.

 

Neither system is 100% but both are mostly good and squeaks can normally be solved by chucking in a box of screws.  Just check it before you put down the floor finish.

Your right that it’s not the end of the world @Mr Punter and plenty of extra screws should do the job, however it would really rile me that after repeated instructions the builder has ignored the request to to it the “proper” way. Not worth sacking him but all future work will need to be carefully monitored to make sure he is not taking the piss. 

[Mr Punter]

A downside of the D4 glue is you get black hands for 2 days.  The PVA is much less messy.  As with all adhesives, the surfaces need to be clean and free of dust, which does not always happen on site.  Typically you will be using a circular saw on an area of already laid floor to cut some boards, with the new stack of boards close to hand and and everything with a nice film of sawdust.

[Adsibob]

16 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

A downside of the D4 glue is you get black hands for 2 days.  The PVA is much less messy.  As with all adhesives, the surfaces need to be clean and free of dust, which does not always happen on site.  Typically you will be using a circular saw on an area of already laid floor to cut some boards, with the new stack of boards close to hand and and everything with a nice film of sawdust.

Is D4 always black? Is it possible they used another manufacturer's D4 glue that dries clear?

[Mr Punter]

1 minute ago, Adsibob said:

Is D4 always black? Is it possible they used another manufacturer's D4 glue that dries clear?

 

No the glue is snot coloured but your skin goes black after contact.

[Adsibob]

If anyone has any pictures of their chipboard installation with foaming glue leaking on the underside, be grateful if you could share so I can see how much messy foaming we should be aiming for.

 

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

... When done correctly the fastidious self builder will spend an hour or two scraping the foam dribbles off the floor below.

 

Or in my case, residual marks from the bloody stuff  is still visible in my work jeans three years later.

 

29 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

... so I can see how much messy foaming we should be aiming for.

 

It gets every-bloody-where. @PeterW warned me, I disbelieved him. I wuz rong rong rong. Got some in my hair - had to grow it out.

Edited September 4, 2021 by ToughButterCup