Matt60 Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 Hi, I have calculated that I will need roughly 1500 wall ties and have been looking at composite ones to avoid thermal bridging. The cost difference is £2430 verses £555 for stainless steel versions. That price seems crazy to me but the house is a keeper and I'm trying to do the fabric of the build to a good spec. I'm building a 150mm cavity with full fill Dritherm 32 insulation, good air-tightness and a MVHR. 1500 pieces of steel that span from inner or outer cavity sounds a lot but then, the total surface area is not that big. Does anyone know if these are worth pursuing for near 5 times the cost of steel, near £1900 extra? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 What is your overall wall build up..? Inside to outside ..? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudda Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 In you're case no. What's the build up of the walls? See below example I've done for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 It had never occurred to me that wall tie conduction was significant. Now seeing the extra cost it would take a lot of lost energy to recover that cost. So I wouldn't change from the norm. If it makes a huge difference, I would expect Ancon to have done tests and made the case. I remember once working out the heat loss through screws in an industrial roof. They are going from the hex head outside in the weather, right through to the roof rails, via other metal bits. It was surprisingly little heat loss, and complex to find a sensible alternative. The standard wall U values as calculated, presumably included wall ties, so the loss is already accounted for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt60 Posted May 24, 2021 Author Share Posted May 24, 2021 @PeterW & @Dudda It will mainly be K-Render, 100mm 3.6n Outer block, 150mm full fill Dritherm32 and then 3.6n aircrete type inner block, slurry coated with dot and full width dabs, socket cavities sealed etc. Very similar to what you have posted Dudda. The ties I was looking at are the Ancon BF2 that show a 0.7 W/m2K rating but I don't really know 0.14 difference is worth having. I'm guessing that as that is a Watts per meter squared (and the total area of these ties must be significantly less that that) that it would be a total waste of £1900 extra? Is that right? Ties for Brick-to-Block Construction | Ancon Thanks for your replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 Not worth it. Save the money. The ties will be the equivalent of 100mm x 100mm area and as they don't go from outside temp to heated space they will have almost no impact. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 My build is similar to yours but with 200mm cavity and dritherm and I discounted them as it will make min difference, on another thread they talk about making your own and buying the rods in length (can’t remember the thread ?♂️) and very much cheaper than specific wall ties. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt60 Posted May 24, 2021 Author Share Posted May 24, 2021 Thanks for the replies, certainly from what I'm able to ascertain, I think you're right. I've had some stainless ones priced and the difference is now £2000 less, that's a huge difference. I'll put that £2k towards my heating and PV system I think. Thanks again, Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 Metal ties are cheapish for 150mm cavity, any bigger and you struggle to find any cost effective solution. Joe 90 is referring to Basalt fibre reinforcing bar that is the same spec as Teplo composite ties and it can be bought very cheap, and the reason I have taken that route as 365mm ties are rarer than hens teeth and can cost upwards of £3 each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 I'd spend the £2k saving on the steel ties and spent it on an extra 50mm PIR in your floor or roof... much bigger benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortarThePoint Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 Take a look at the thread below. I don't think they're worth it. Thermally broken lintels probably a better choice https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/15192-dont-forget-thermal-bridging/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt60 Posted May 27, 2021 Author Share Posted May 27, 2021 On 26/05/2021 at 13:48, MortarThePoint said: Take a look at the thread below. I don't think they're worth it. Thermally broken lintels probably a better choice https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/15192-dont-forget-thermal-bridging/ Thanks, by coincidence I ordered all my thermally broken lintels today. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEO-PAR Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 On 26/05/2021 at 12:52, gravelrash said: Metal ties are cheapish for 150mm cavity, any bigger and you struggle to find any cost effective solution. Joe 90 is referring to Basalt fibre reinforcing bar that is the same spec as Teplo composite ties and it can be bought very cheap, and the reason I have taken that route as 365mm ties are rarer than hens teeth and can cost upwards of £3 each. Is there any particular size/type of Basalt fibre rebar I need to look for? Currently going through the same process where I'm struggling to justify the cost uplift of extra wide cavity wall ties (375mm cavity) and this seems like a great solution. How did you get over the lack of drip detail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 I used 6mm sand coated basalt from Orlimex UK Limited. they supplied in 2.5m lengths then just cut them to length and install an o ring in the middle as a drip. They costed out at 22p each. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 48 minutes ago, gravelrash said: I used 6mm sand coated basalt from Orlimex UK Limited. they supplied in 2.5m lengths then just cut them to length and install an o ring in the middle as a drip. They costed out at 22p each. I had a look and they seemed to deal in board products. Were the wall ties BBA or equivalent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 https://orlitech.co.uk Christopher.Hirst@orlimex.co.uk No BBA cert...That's why they cost so much from TEPLO. My structural engineer jus checked spec and signed them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEO-PAR Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 Just done the same. A few people whispering in my ear though that they think damp will track across, even with the o rings. Any issues so far for those that have used them? Also are they tricky to install with PIR? Don't know if they will not sit very well and cause the insulation to kick up where they are quite thick? I may be over thinking it though 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEO-PAR Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 Also how have you guys got around the cavity closer issue? Where I have wide cavities, the only closers I can find are about 30 quid each. Over £1k for my whole job 🤦♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 i looked at this as well. in the end just increased loft insulation more than negated the small losses from ties. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyT Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 On 18/07/2024 at 20:42, GEO-PAR said: Also how have you guys got around the cavity closer issue? Where I have wide cavities, the only closers I can find are about 30 quid each. Over £1k for my whole job 🤦♂️ Run some dpm up the back of window reveal and close the cavity off with 50mm pir insulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEO-PAR Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 2 hours ago, DannyT said: Run some dpm up the back of window reveal and close the cavity off with 50mm pir insulation. Building Control were happy with this? I thought it had to meet certain fire requirements, which the cavity closers you buy have been tested against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 On 18/07/2024 at 20:42, GEO-PAR said: Also how have you guys got around the cavity closer issue? Where I have wide cavities, the only closers I can find are about 30 quid each. Over £1k for my whole job 🤦♂️ subframes.co.uk i got ours from, 150mm cav were about £18 per opening (including doors). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEO-PAR Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 8 hours ago, Dave Jones said: subframes.co.uk i got ours from, 150mm cav were about £18 per opening (including doors). £18 an opening sounds crazily cheap?! Do you mean per length? When I priced it up in Timloc, it was about £30 ever 2.4 metres. Worked out about 1k for the whole job and I feel I don't have that many openings. That's also not including the cavity closer at the eaves, but I was thinking of just closing that off with cementitious board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 They are supplied made to size and braced not loose lengths. You don’t need them at eaves as you want the cavity insulation to meet the loft insulation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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