Suggestions for a weird corner?

[puntloos]

Take a look at the attached image, in particular the weird kitchen corner, which is 647x600. What "clever" thing shall I do with this corner, and where to store the ASHP

 

A bunch of notes

- The viesmann 222 ASHP temporarily put in the middle of the room is 60x60, and could actually fit in that corner but then suddenly you can't put any cupboard in front of it

- Also, there's a walkway above that spot, so I guess pipes would have to go up-and-over the pocket door into the stair cupboard

- The ASHP could fit in that stairs cupboard perhaps?

- The door (to utility) can be anywhere. 

- Utility ideally should remain empty (since we could make a garage out of it, it has sort-of sufficient size, 5x3)

 

My ideal solution is to have some type of cabinet that conceals the ashp, but leaves it accessible for maintenance, but perhaps a 1200mm deep cabinet exists?

 

 

 

 

[joth]

Put the ASHP indoor unit (basically, a pre-plumbed cylinder for anyone else unsure) in that space, build a service door in front to square out the room, then park your desert and wine hostess trolley in front.

 

Check if the cylinder has any pipe connections on the sides or back, as they'll be hard to install. In fact, check with the manufacturer how small a nook they advise it is can be installed in

The pipes to the outdoor unit can be run underground, under the slab. Where is the UFH manifold going? Are you using a manifold for DHW supply, and need secondary return? That stuff all takes space, but maybe can go under the stairs

 

 

 

[PeterW]

Isn’t the Veissman the split unit ..? Or the weird internal boiler thing..? 
 

If so, find a plant room for it not your kitchen as they can make some noise. Also if you’re going split unit and it’s refrigeration then you need good access to run the lines and they need proper insulation.
 

Also looking at the MIs for the unit all the connections are on the rear so you need access either side to install and service it. 

 

 

[joth]

7 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Isn’t the Veissman the split unit ..? Or the weird internal boiler thing..? 

From previous conversation, I'm fairly sure it's the Vitocal 222-A which is a monobloc  heatpump, so the thing being discussed here is the packaged 220L DHW tank for it, not the heatpump. 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by joth

[PeterW]

That’s a very small but very expensive tank then ..! Still appears to have rear connections too. 
 

I’d be putting a standard kitchen unit in there and leaving it, tanks don’t belong in the kitchen. 

[syne]

I'm not sure if it matters but that 3d image doesn't match the plan, Its got your big fridge set into a wall. 

 

I'd have the door open the otherway into the utility, in that corner a tall glass fronted fridge or a cupboard.

 

Or a vertical fishtank with some little jellyfish??

 

[SteamyTea]

About the right size to store a surfboard and hang up the wetsuit to dry.

Sorted.

[ProDave]

I would close off that awkward corner and incorporate it as part of the under stair cupboard with a clever arrangement that you can access it when the pocket doors are slid into the room.

[puntloos]

5 hours ago, PeterW said:

That’s a very small but very expensive tank then ..! Still appears to have rear connections too. 
 

It's 222L, so sufficient for 3 people, but the house indeed is large, we were thinking if needed a secondary cylinder could go in the loft?

5 hours ago, PeterW said:

I’d be putting a standard kitchen unit in there and leaving it,

What to do with the extra depth then?

 

5 hours ago, PeterW said:

tanks don’t belong in the kitchen. 

 

This was somewhat debated when talking to heating guy. The device should be pretty much silent (maybe a pump) and pretty well-insulated (also compared to the hob, the amount of heat it puts out is not a big porblem). So I agree with the 'sense' but I'm not sure there really is a big downside? My only concern is indeed the kitchen space is sorely needed so I'd prefer to indeed have a more 'kitchen-y' use, but in a way it can be recessed out of the way, if only we could provide proper access to it.. 

1 hour ago, syne said:

I'm not sure if it matters but that 3d image doesn't match the plan, Its got your big fridge set into a wall. 

 

Nah it's perhaps an unfortunate angle but the side of the fridge is dark, it's not inset. 

 

1 hour ago, syne said:

I'd have the door open the otherway into the utility,

 

It would impact a car though  

 

1 hour ago, syne said:

in that corner a tall glass fronted fridge or a cupboard.

 

Hmm something semi-movable (like a fridge) might indeed work there, so it can be rolled out of the way if access to the ASHP is needed..

 

1 hour ago, syne said:

Or a vertical fishtank with some little jellyfish??

 

Ha. No.

[puntloos]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I would close off that awkward corner and incorporate it as part of the under stair cupboard with a clever arrangement that you can access it when the pocket doors are slid into the room.

Very interesting idea... this might actually fix quite a few things. If anything, nothing stopping us from putting the ASHP where we previously discussed, and indeed have it accessible if the pocket doors are closed..  Might have to ponder this option deeper..

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

It's 222L, so sufficient for 3 people, but the house indeed is large, we were thinking if needed a secondary cylinder could go in the loft?

No it’s not ... minimum 250 litre for 3 people. 180 litres for 2 people. 
 

Secondary cylinder in the loft ..? How ..?? Thermosyphon and other issues, long lengths of pipework, recirc nightmare ... why would you ..? Ignore the salesman, buy a bigger and better tank (Telford HP 400 litre is cheaper than that unit you’ve quoted btw...)  and do it properly. 
 

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

What to do with the extra depth then?

Bring it forward ...??? Ful height unit wouldn’t notice. 
 

 

[puntloos]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

No it’s not ... minimum 250 litre for 3 people. 180 litres for 2 people. 

Eh. 250 is pretty generous, but still, the house is pretty large-ish at this point so certainly if some big family wants to move in it'd be severely lacking so "something" would have to be done. 

 

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

 

Secondary cylinder in the loft ..? How ..??

Thermosyphon and other issues, long lengths of pipework, recirc nightmare ... why would you ..?

Perhaps a bad assumption on my part. I assumed upgrading water storage with an extra cylinder isn't hard... 

 

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Ignore the salesman,

Heh, well both people recommending this one didn't actually sell the device..  the main "pro" reasons were that having the cylinder and "hp parts" (not the compressors of course, the monobloc is in the garden) together would be a fairly nice way to solve a few problems surrounding installation and more importantly heat loss.

 

Also the device does have a hot water return as well as cooling function which IMO is fairly important. 

 

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

buy a bigger and better tank (Telford HP 400 litre is cheaper than that unit you’ve quoted btw...)  and do it properly. 

 

Where would you put the cylinder then? Loft?

 

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Bring it forward ...??? Ful height unit wouldn’t notice. 

 

OK but then there's a bit of wasted space (still, prodave's idea might just work..)

[pdf27]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

No it’s not ... minimum 250 litre for 3 people. 180 litres for 2 people. 

Where do you get your sizing rules from? That's a lot more than I find when I look elsewhere and I'm trying to work out why - is it just running the cylinder very cool?

 

3 hours ago, puntloos said:

Very interesting idea... this might actually fix quite a few things. If anything, nothing stopping us from putting the ASHP where we previously discussed, and indeed have it accessible if the pocket doors are closed..  Might have to ponder this option deeper..

Why do you need full access? You need sufficient access for the G3 inspection, but that's about it - the cylinder itself should last for decades.

[puntloos]

6 minutes ago, pdf27 said:

Where do you get your sizing rules from? That's a lot more than I find when I look elsewhere and I'm trying to work out why - is it just running the cylinder very cool?

 

I guess for ASHP-provided water the water is cooler so you need more? 

 

6 minutes ago, pdf27 said:

Why do you need full access? You need sufficient access for the G3 inspection, but that's about it - the cylinder itself should last for decades.

True, although for the viessmann there is some gubbins on top of it, but in principle agreed, not a ton of access needed. Still, walling it into a cupboard is a bit of a bet that indeed you don't need to touch it..

[PeterW]

8 minutes ago, pdf27 said:

Where do you get your sizing rules from? That's a lot more than I find when I look elsewhere and I'm trying to work out why - is it just running the cylinder very cool?

Most cylinder sizing is done using 60 litres per day per person, tank at 65°C with a 21kW boiler giving a recovery time of around 45 minutes. It’s the old “rule of thumb” same as rad sizing and so on. 
 

None of that is achievable and suitable for ASHP as you tend to run cooler, heat source isn’t as powerful and modern houses use more hot water than people realise. If you size about 35% larger than this, you end up at nearer 85 litres per day stored so 255 litres rounds up to the next largest tank. 
 

You still need all the G3 kit including your tundish and PRV drains etc. 

[SteamyTea]

14 hours ago, PeterW said:

Most cylinder sizing is done using 60 litres per day per person, tank at 65°C 

Which is, assuming a minimum tank temperature of 10°C which is ~4 kWh.

If the max temp is set to 45°C then the volume needs to go up to ~100 litres, to store the same amount of energy.

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by SteamyTea

[puntloos]

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Which is, assuming a minimum tank temperature of 10°C which is ~4 kWh.

If the max temp is set to 45°C then the volume needs to go up to ~100 litres, to store the same amount of energy.

 

Can't argue with someone with your nickname on this subject. 

 

I suppose one key question for me is primarily where to store the "gubbins" - things like manifolds for UFH and MVHR, and the actual cylinder. I always assumed:

- Connecting the ASHP 'warm water line' very close to the actual monobloc will be important (long lines seem harder, both for insulation and just transport reasons)

- Connecting the cylinder close to that connection seems like a good idea.

- Same for UFH manifolds.

 

So, that location was pretty much the optimal place. But would it perhaps be almost as good to have the UFH manifolds be there, but the hot water storage in the loft? I'm sure it will require more pipework but will it be "systematically worse" or just takes a bit more effort by the M&E guys?

[ProDave]

I started off allocating a "plant room"

 

I then decided the plant room was the most daft place to put the hot water cylinder as it was a long way from the taps, particularly the kitchen.  So the HW cylinder went in an airing cupboard crated in the corner of the small bedroom putting it close to the kitchen, bathrooms and utility room.

 

UFH manifolds are in the utility room downstairs and in a partitioned off bit of the eaves wall in the en-suite. Again central for pipework connecting to them.

 

That just leaves the MVHR and it's manifolds and some heating controls and a pump in the largely empty "plant room" that is now a store room and has my electrical work bench in it.

[Pocster]

Perfect space for a small secure punishment room for unruly guests .

[puntloos]

17 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I started off allocating a "plant room"

 

I then decided the plant room was the most daft place to put the hot water cylinder as it was a long way from the taps, particularly the kitchen.  So the HW cylinder went in an airing cupboard crated in the corner of the small bedroom putting it close to the kitchen, bathrooms and utility room.

With a hot water return the actual location is a bit of a non-issue, is it not?

17 minutes ago, ProDave said:

UFH manifolds are in the utility room downstairs and in a partitioned off bit of the eaves wall in the en-suite. Again central for pipework connecting to them.

That just leaves the MVHR and it's manifolds and some heating controls and a pump in the largely empty "plant room" that is now a store room and has my electrical work bench in it.

 

I'm thinking indeed the manifolds might be cleverly fitted in the newly created space:

 

 

[Bitpipe]

UFH manifolds are not large, ours are in the hall cupboard along side the pump, controller and same for the towel rads. 

 

UVC is in basement plant room with hot return so distance from taps not an issue.

 

MVHR manifolds can be large though and need space around them to take all the terminating ducting can get congested when they all come together. Ours are 14 ports each and are a flat design so are mounted in the plant room ceiling. The unit itself is not small either so wall mounted in plant room also. Needs access to change filters and the annual heat exchanger clean.

[puntloos]

On 05/04/2021 at 15:33, PeterW said:

No it’s not ... minimum 250 litre for 3 people. 180 litres for 2 people. 
 

Secondary cylinder in the loft ..? How ..?? Thermosyphon and other issues, long lengths of pipework, recirc nightmare ... why would you ..? Ignore the salesman, buy a bigger and better tank (Telford HP 400 litre is cheaper than that unit you’ve quoted btw...)  and do it properly. 

https://www.telford-group.com/product/tempest-heat-pump-indirect- 

That one? 400L? 500L?

 

And would it be OK in the loft, ideally on its side? (so under the eaves)?

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

Connecting the ASHP 'warm water line' very close to the actual monobloc will be important

You need enough room to fit reasonably long flexible pipes to minimise sound transmission.

 

Can you raise the cylinder up and have enough room under it for manifolds and maintenance?

[puntloos]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

You need enough room to fit reasonably long flexible pipes to minimise sound transmission.

Meaning in-wall room? or in the actual cupboard?

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

 

Can you raise the cylinder up and have enough room under it for manifolds and maintenance?

 

with 2700 ceiling height, I'd say theoretically 'yes'.. 

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, puntloos said:

Meaning in-wall room?

Some sort of platform maybe.