Neighbour claiming 2 metres of our garden - boundary issue

[Mr Punter]

The inclusion of this in the planning objection will make no difference.  Planners are not concerned with who owns what.

 

The overlay drawing from Survey Hub did not show anything of note.

[Temp]

If you already have Planning Permission its very unlikely the planners will take any action as they can be liable for costs of removing it.

 

First thing I would do is get a copy of both title plans and overlay them on an old OS map at same scale to see how everything lines up. Yes I know these aren't definitive. Get a 60m tape and measure from any features shown on your side to the current boundary position. I know this isn't "proof" of anything but it might tell you if there is something wrong and where it might come from or if its total fiction. 

 

The rules on Adverse Possession changed in 2002 (?) and unlikely you will be able to use that to claim ownership as its registered land. Nowadays you can make a claim after 10 years BUT the LR then try and contact the registered owner who has 2 years to assert their right to the land and reclaim possession. If they do then its game over for you.  I would NOT go down that route without taking advice as making an application might amount to admitting the land is not part of your title. 

 

See also a PM I sent you.

 

 

[epsilonGreedy]

Does anyone know the latest situation with the private members Bill that got to a second or third reading in Parliament? My understanding is that it is unusual for a private members Bill to get that far and that pre Covid there was a realistic chance the Bill would have become statute law in 2020.

 

For those not up to speed on this, the Bill would force neighbours in dispute to accept an independent assessment of a boundary dispute before a case becomes eligible for Court proceedings. 

 

This is relevant to how I handle my boundary dispute.

Edited March 1, 2021 by epsilonGreedy

[Temp]

Google found this..

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/2555

"A Bill to make provision for the resolution of disputes concerning the location or placement of boundaries and private rights of way relating to the title of an estate in land; and for connected purposes."

 

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/2555/news

"Second reading - the general debate on all aspects of the Bill - is yet to be scheduled."

 

[jack]

41 minutes ago, Temp said:

The rules on Adverse Possession changed in 2002 (?) and unlikely you will be able to use that to claim ownership as its registered land.

 

Wow, unbelievable it's been that long, but you're right! I'd have guessed that no more than 10 years had passed since those changes. Man I feel old.

 

That said, a reasonable belief as to boundary position remains an option for a claim under even the new law. That seems to be what's happened here (assuming the boundary is actually in the wrong place - it may actually be the title document that's wrong, in which case this is not a situation to which adverse possession applies).

 

See Schedule 6 of the LRA 2002: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/schedule/6  

 

Para 5(4) is the relevant bit (needs to be read in conjunction with at least paras 1 and 2).

 

I agree that this will all be completely irrelevant as far as the planners are concerned.

[AliG]

I would get the deeds/titles first and check what they say.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the say something along the lines of "the fence is the boundary" as that would have been the intention of the original owner. They would also likely give measurements to break up the plot.

 

Looking at the plan I would also note that the fence on the other side seems to be about 1M inside the boundaries as if the whole plan is off to one side.

 

If it cannot be simply sorted by checking the deeds then you are going to have to argue about it which is a waste of everyone's money. If you go down this route you have a good chance of success I would say, but it will be stressful and expensive.

 

Does it matter which position the boundary is in as to whether or not you build the house you have permission for? If not I would just get building and see if they actually are willing to start proceedings and waste money once it is too late to stop you anyway.

 

 

 

 

[pdf27]

3 hours ago, Happy Valley said:

"These measurements are not definitive, as the Boundary line has been traced from the Title Plan. These plans are only produced as a guidance to general position and fitting to match a topographic survey will always introduce scaling errors"

So the boundary was drawn by the same guy who planted the hedge, and has been there the whole time they've lived there. They've now got a survey which states it's not very accurate to the title plan, and in any case the Land Registry themselves state that the title plans aren't definitive.

It's worth trying to be polite to the neighbour - you don't want this to escalate since that will get expensive - but I don't think he's got a leg to stand on unless there is anything in your deeds which defines the boundary much more accurately than the land registry map does. It's worth checking, but I'd be surprised.

 

Edit: apparently what your neighbour is doing is common enough to get it's own FAQ answer.

Edited March 1, 2021 by pdf27

[Bitpipe]

2 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

The inclusion of this in the planning objection will make no difference.  Planners are not concerned with who owns what.

 

Yep - you can get planning consent on land you do not own. Just means you are allowed to build it from a LA point of view not that you can legally build it with respect to land ownership.

 

Neighbour tried to pull something similar with a covenant that existed on our plots, planners said 'whatever'.

 

Do you think the objection to condition discharge is a move to get the boundary dispute 'on the record'?

 

[epsilonGreedy]

3 hours ago, pdf27 said:

It's worth trying to be polite to the neighbour - you don't want this to escalate since that will get expensive -

 

 

Being polite did not work for me, I should have opened the dispute with a salvo of solicitor letters. The older the neighbour the more cautious I'd be.

 

My boundary problem relates to a filled in drainage ditch, there was a hard natural boundary feature that was removed. The LR plans still show both sides of a now piped and covered ditch. My plot should extend to the far side of the ditch.

[epsilonGreedy]

3 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

Do you think the objection to condition discharge is a move to get the boundary dispute 'on the record'?

 

 

That was my first thought. In practice I don't think most people act with such sophistication.

[Faz]

This all brings back to mind when I worked at Railtrack back in the 90's - BRPB lost lots of land due to garden 'extensions' and then adverse possession - we had a load of lapsed garden tenancies in Kentish Town running up to the 12 years (the rent was like £10 a year ffs) - no response to any letter from a single resident - ooops - ordered the contractors in to put up a railway fence - they used to have 180 ft gardens - when we enforced the boundary they dropped to about 20 ft (this was on about 50 houses) - you would not believe the sh*tstorm that ensued - it actually did end up on national news.

 

Didn't back down though....  And they had to live with 20 ft rear gardens as we didn't regrant the garden tenancies.

[Happy Valley]

This issue has raised it's head again today.

 

Neighbour says the survey hub is definitive and is going to peg it out on 17 May and reclaim his land. 

 

We would let him have one meter only!

[jack]

I know it's a time and energy (edited to add: and money!) sink, but there's absolutely no way I could let this behaviour stand. I'd be in contact with a solicitor who knows about these things, and getting a letter sent with the relevant threats about trespass, and I wouldn't be giving up a single millimetre. If he has to do anything to things on your land (plants, a hedge, a fence) to do this marking out, I'd also be raising the prospect of criminal damage.

[PeterW]

+1 to the above and get the photos to the solicitor ASAP .. 

[epsilonGreedy]

My general advice is do not assume the other party will behave like a rational logical human being. I had no idea how wicked, delusional and evil people could be until I started self building.

[Happy Valley]

Thanks all.

Spoke to our insurers as we have legal assistance. They said try and negotiate - if no agreement get a survey done and see if the surveyors can mediate and then if necessary go legal. 

 

I haven't made a decision yet but a solicitor straight away has not been ruled out.

[Happy Valley]

47 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

My general advice is do not assume the other party will behave like a rational logical human being. I had no idea how wicked, delusional and evil people could be until I started self building.

 As we too are finding....unfortunately!!

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, Happy Valley said:

Thanks all.

Spoke to our insurers as we have legal assistance. They said try and negotiate - if no agreement get a survey done and see if the surveyors can mediate and then if necessary go legal. 

 

I haven't made a decision yet but a solicitor straight away has not been ruled out.

 

 

That sounds like a sensible approach to resolve an established dispute where bath parties are behaving reasonably.

 

Depending on funds available I would fire off a registered letter to the other party in order to establish proof that you dispute the other party's claims. Keep the language terse and minimal i.e. don't rehearse a long winded argument in the letter as thought you were in the High Court and presenting a case to a Judge.

[Roundtuit]

2 hours ago, Happy Valley said:

Spoke to our insurers as we have legal assistance. They said try and negotiate - if no agreement get a survey done and see if the surveyors can mediate and then if necessary go legal. 

 

I haven't made a decision yet but a solicitor straight away has not been ruled out.

I'm sure your insurers would rather you gave up some land as it costs them nothing, but I can't see what there is to negotiate about.  Sounds like your neighbour bought his property happily, based on the physical boundaries he could see and accepted as true. Now he wants a bit of your garden, because he's being a tw@t.

 

I'd keep it cool and calm (on the outside..!) but as already said, I wouldn't concede a millimetre and make that absolutely clear via a solicitors letter.

[Temp]

10 hours ago, Happy Valley said:

This issue has raised it's head again today.

 

Neighbour says the survey hub is definitive and is going to peg it out on 17 May and reclaim his land. 

 

We would let him have one meter only!

 

If you are minded to physically stop them.. I recommend a friendly call to the local police the day before. Tell them you are worried the neighbours are going to try and move a property boundary without a court order. Say you know its a civil matter but you are concerned they may cause a breech of the peace. Say you are just letting them know in case you have to call them tomorrow. Try and sound as reasonable and calm as possible. Then call them the moment the neighbours start banging in posts.

 

PS If you allow them to take possession it will be down to you to take court action rather than them.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Temp

[Temp]

I recommend getting your own survey and report done by RICS.

 

https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/27/drawing-the-line-on-boundaries/

 

If you need help, contact RICS or call their boundary dispute helpline on 02476 868555.

[joe90]

If the hedge was planted by the people splitting the plot and it was 20years ago I don’t see your neighbours position as tenable.

[Happy Valley]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

Whilst we prefer not to give them an inch we are mindful that this boundary is part of our existing home to be sold in a years time and also our new build we do not wish to have a long protracted legal battle that will stop us selling our existing home. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Happy Valley

[joe90]

43 minutes ago, Happy Valley said:

we do not wish to have a long protracted legal battle

When selling a house you have to declare outstanding neighbour issues!!!!?‍♂️ (But don’t give an inch!!).

[jack]

47 minutes ago, Happy Valley said:

Whilst we prefer not to give them an inch we are mindful that this boundary is part of our existing home to be sold in a years time and also our new build we do not wish to have a long protracted legal battle that will stop us selling our existing home. 

 

I doubt it will be protracted. If everything you've said is correct, I don't see that the neighbour has a leg to stand on. Initiating legal action will be expensive for them, and the first thing a solicitor is going to tell the neighbour is how weak their case is.