Moonshine Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) This is probably a subject that has me and others going round in circles about the external wall construction. I have two choices really Masonary block cavity wall - 150mm fully filled Timber frame inner skin / masonry block external skin I started off going timber frame, but now am looking to go cavity block, though speaking to developers and builders they are mostly saying if build from scratch they would go timber frame inner skin. Timber frame has its advantages, in that it is a package of work that can get me pretty much water tight with one contractor and quickly, but there is a cost to that. The block may be cheaper but there would be more to manage, my logic in using block is that the house has a cavity filled (concrete) block retaining wall basement, so that trade is on site so may as well carry on. What are peoples thoughts and why they went a particular way. Edited January 21, 2021 by Moonshine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I have used neither. But I have learned that whatever the fabric - it's the quality of the work that is the key issue. I suspect you can get U values pretty much the same overall for each build method. Its the focus on detail and pride in accuracy that repays. Just one slapdash worker is enough to cause lots more downstream work, and therefore cost. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 We went brick and block, we wanted a brick outer skin (no maintenance and good looking) and I hate hollow sounding walls, also I believe in heavy weight (thermal mass ?). Cavity is 200mm rockwall batts, airtight layer is wet plastering, attention to detail (see @ToughButterCup point above) I am not convinced on the longevity of tapes and membranes. I can hang the heaviest of “stuff“ on any wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I went timber frame internal as I could get it erected, roof on, watertight quickly then went with whinstone on the outside to match the existing house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 If there is room for a crane or telehandler, timber frame will get you in the dry quicker. I have done timber frame over a concrete (ICF) basement. We used timber joists for the ground floor structure. You will need to work out where your insulation is going and carefully plan the junction between the 2 systems. Make sure the join between them is at least 150mm above ground level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceverge Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Good timber frame is the best. Bad timber frame is the worst. Block builds span the mediocrity in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: If there is room for a crane or telehandler, timber frame will get you in the dry quicker. I have done timber frame over a concrete (ICF) basement. We used timber joists for the ground floor structure. You will need to work out where your insulation is going and carefully plan the junction between the 2 systems. Make sure the join between them is at least 150mm above ground level. Thanks, the basement doesn't cover the whole footprint and most of the basement is garage, so the ground floor in this case is going to be traditional block and beam sat on traditional footings and onto of the cavity filled basement wall. I would look to do something like this at the base of the external walls / on top of retaining walls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 We did our basement in shuttered concrete and put a timber frame on top. We copied the passive slab construction that the timber frame company usually provided. Also steel frame & timber joists for GF, although a concrete lid may have been cheaper, a web joist floor made it easy to install UFH and services (lighting, MVHR etc). Was all pretty straightforward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 We went block and block Both have there advantages TF are easier to make airtight But don’t have as solid of a feel TF are so much more convenient and ideal for self builders We are looking to start our next two builds this year I’ve looked into TF in order to make my lice easier But the costs are frightening Quite a gap between the two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, nod said: But the costs are frightening Quite a gap between the two That is the part that i am struggling to work out, i have quotes from TF'ers, but i don't know what the equivalent would be to do the internal skin block and a floorings etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 While bricklayers prices have jumped up I think the TF companies have followed suit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I got about 6 TF quotes and had to do quite a bit of work to make them comparative - variables included delivery to site, crane hire, erection, safety systems (fall arrest), foundation systems, non structural walls, temp stairs, insulation, airtightness testing, roof felt & batten etc etc. I got one builder quote for traditional block construction - it was competitively priced but I didn't have confidence that I'd get the low energy performance I wanted (he said 'I'll have a go' and I was not confident enough to PM that type of work. Also looked at ICF (done by contractor, not DIY) but that was coming out as a lot more than TF. If you can afford the up front cost you can get a lot done in a short time and move fairly quickly to first fix. You're pretty wether independent also - depending on the hardiness of the crew (and mine were very hardy) TFs can be erected in conditions when block laying would not be feasible. Also the predictability of door & window openings mean you can order those ahead and have something approaching just in time delivery. Also TFs are easier to adjust (within reason) if there's been a mistake on apertures (even after triple checking I still had a few). Scaff costs also potentially reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trw144 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Bitpipe said: We did our basement in shuttered concrete and put a timber frame on top. We copied the passive slab construction that the timber frame company usually provided. Also steel frame & timber joists for GF, although a concrete lid may have been cheaper, a web joist floor made it easy to install UFH and services (lighting, MVHR etc). Was all pretty straightforward. This is the choice we currently have. A lower ground floor needing to be block/concrete as its built into a bank, and either continue in block for the next two stories, or put a timber fame on. Having done timber frame for the current build, I do like the speed of build, ease of obtaining high insulation and air tightness. for me. The one downside of TF for me has been sound insulation - the one corner of the house nearest the road does pick up more noise (fortunately it'sthe spare bedroom). PS. I forgot how much I enjoy this forum for knowledge building and thought provoking Edited January 21, 2021 by Trw144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Trw144 said: The one downside of TF for me has been sound insulation - the one corner of the house nearest the road does pick up more noise (fortunately it'sthe spare bedroom). PS. I forgot how much I enjoy this forum for knowledge building and thought provoking I have the MBC passive wall construction and it's pretty soundproof - probably due to the thick layer of warmcell between the internal and external panels and the high levels of airtightness overall. I suppose it's highly dependent on the wall build up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trw144 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Bitpipe said: I have the MBC passive wall construction and it's pretty soundproof - probably due to the thick layer of warmcell between the internal and external panels and the high levels of airtightness overall. I suppose it's highly dependent on the wall build up. Yes, I think if I did go timber frame then this is something I need to look at. The second slight downside to my TF (and again the warmcell probably assists with this also), is that it can get quite warm in the summer (we have a flat roof and lots of glazing). Edited January 21, 2021 by Trw144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Trw144 said: Yes, I think if I did go timber frame then this is something I need to look at. The second slight downside to my TF (and again the warmcell probably assists with this also), is that it can get quite warm in the summer (we have a flat roof and lots of glazing). Google 'decrement delay' - there was a good comment in this forum on it recently also. That wall (and roof) construction is quite slow to heat up in summer also. For glazing we have external blinds on south and east (street) windows, inc Velux, which are excellent at reducing solar gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trw144 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Bitpipe said: Google 'decrement delay' - there was a good comment in this forum on it recently also. That wall (and roof) construction is quite slow to heat up in summer also. For glazing we have external blinds on south and east (street) windows, inc Velux, which are excellent at reducing solar gain. Yes I remember "decrement delay" being the buzzword of this forum 4 years ago, along with thermal mass! We have installed automated blinds which help reduce it significantly, but you certainly notice it otherwise. We didn't install solar PV in the last property, but pretty certain we will in the next one (along with a bank of Tesla Powerwalls), so I can look at running air con cheaply in the summer. Edited January 21, 2021 by Trw144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Trw144 said: thermal mass! Wash your mouth out ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trw144 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) My other memories from 4 years ago are a forum member (cant remember the name) who had about 450 page thread on a bathroom revamp, someone who had an issue with newts, and @nickfromwales diet basically involving bbq's and tins of beer each night. I assume little has changed? Edited January 21, 2021 by Trw144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 3 hours ago, Trw144 said: The one downside of TF for me has been sound insulation what is your construction, purely timber or with a masonry outer skin? Also PIR or mineral wool insulation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 15 minutes ago, Trw144 said: My other memories from 4 years ago are a forum member (cant remember the name) who had about 450 page thread on a bathroom revamp, someone who had an issue with newts, and @nickfromwales diet basically involving bbq's and tins of beer each night. I assume little has changed? That's about it. There is now some walk on glass for sale from @pocster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Bitpipe said: That's about it. There is now some walk on glass for sale from @pocster Yeah - I’m the new boy with new things ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 30 minutes ago, Trw144 said: My other memories from 4 years ago are a forum member (cant remember the name) who had about 450 page thread on a bathroom revamp, someone who had an issue with newts, and @nickfromwales diet basically involving bbq's and tins of beer each night. I assume little has changed? nope, nothing has changed (but I have finished my build ?). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 39 minutes ago, Trw144 said: My other memories from 4 years ago are a forum member (cant remember the name) who had about 450 page thread on a bathroom revamp Slack git still hasn't finished it last I heard... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trw144 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Moonshine said: what is your construction, purely timber or with a masonry outer skin? Also PIR or mineral wool insulation? Upstairs is timber clad so TF, PIR and cedar. Downstairs is render on cement board and I think this adds that bit of extra mass so it isn't an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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