WC / Shower Room on Ground Floor vs Building Regs

[BartW]

Hi everyone,

 

I am currently preparing drawings for Building Regs to approve, as well as the Timber Frame supplier to build off. When I was speaking to another TF supplier at the quoting stage it was mentioned that the GF WC / Shower Room will not conform to regs. I have looked at the Part M document, which makes clear references to toilets, but could not see a clear set of guidelines with it being a WC / Shower Room, or as in our case "Guest Bathroom".

 

Please, see a snippet of a plan for comment.

 

Many thanks!

 

Bart

 

 

[PeterW]

Looks like it won’t - needs an 800mm space in front of the WC plus the sink is in the way of the minimum width. 
 

If this is English regs, just look at the Part M for a WC as this is the only ground floor WC so must be accessible. 

[BartW]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the reply.

 

So, the Part M Regs say it needs 750mm in front of the toilet:

 

 

I can achieve this by thickening the staircase wall and having the cistern fully concealed:

 

 

The question is, am I reading the correct part of the regs, and interpreting it as I should?

 

Forgot to add, the site is in Graven Hill (Oxfordshire).

 

Thanks

Bart

 

 

[Temp]

I think you may need a wider door.  The regs specify a "clear opening width" not the width of the door. When a door can only open 90 degrees the door itself obstructs the opening reducing it by the thickness of the door and sometimes by another 10mm or so.

 

If you specify a room width of 760mm that only gives the builders 10mm for errors, plastering, tiles? Id be inclined to allow a bit more.

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Temp

[PeterW]

Ok - have a look at the amendments as they have better drawings. 
 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/506376/AD_M_Corrigenda_SECURE.pdf
 

Next , the door has to open outward - see 1.17d 

 

Also look at diagram 1.4b and 1.2 in the main regulations. - you need to also comply with these. 
 

Has the architect not drawn this up to meet regs ..?

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

Nothing to do with disabled regs, but try not to have doors directly built off the side of another wall, always have a sub of wall before the doorframe, otherwise the door will never open fully, and you will also have problems putting architrave around the frame. 

[BartW]

Hey,

I have not got an architect, and doing everything by myself. Hence, the questions that might seem obvious

 

As for the doors, they can be made wider. I am planning on them being full height, so they will be bespoke anyway. Also, the plan is to go shadow gap with no architraves all around. So I can get fairly close to the perpendicular wall junctions. Equally, I can still make the room wider, at the cost of the Guest Bedroom. Or move the toilet under the stairs and make it into an alcove. There are reasons I might not want to do that, though. 
 

I also note the door needing to swing onto the outside, which as much as not of preference might make it for an easier way of making it into a jib door. 
 

Overall, sounds like I might have to study Part M a bit more

[keith65]

Hi I think the door has to be 900mm wide to cover wheelchair access 

[DevilDamo]

The door needs to provide a min. clear width of 750mm, which as per the note on Table 1.1 (Page8) achieved with an 826mm wide door. If you’re looking to have the door close or butt up to the wall, then the door will need to be made wider in order to account for the clear opening with protruding door handles, etc... But it’s still common and best practice for the door to open outwards, which gives you a little more scope for slightly narrower doors.

 

Your internal dimensions for the space infront of the W.C. and washbasin do upon first glance appear to comply, but do not leave much room for the varying sizes of sanitary fittings available on the market.

 

Just out of interest, is this a 2-storey dwelling?

[BartW]

1 hour ago, DevilDamo said:

The door needs to provide a min. clear width of 750mm, which as per the note on Table 1.1 (Page8) achieved with an 826mm wide door. If you’re looking to have the door close or butt up to the wall, then the door will need to be made wider in order to account for the clear opening with protruding door handles, etc... But it’s still common and best practice for the door to open outwards, which gives you a little more scope for slightly narrower doors.

 

Your internal dimensions for the space infront of the W.C. and washbasin do upon first glance appear to comply, but do not leave much room for the varying sizes of sanitary fittings available on the market.

 

Just out of interest, is this a 2-storey dwelling?

Hi,

yes, it is actually three storeys with just Gym and open terrace on the top floor. 
 

I should have perhaps started with full plans and visuals of the building. I will upload those later. 
 

but essentially:

- ground floor as shown

- first floor 3 bedrooms (1 on which ensuite), and family bathroom

- top floor gym + terrace

 

 

[DevilDamo]

How are you planning on meeting AD B as the stair is not enclosed and opens into probably the worst ‘at risk’ area in a dwelling?

[BartW]

45 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

How are you planning on meeting AD B as the stair is not enclosed and opens into probably the worst ‘at risk’ area in a dwelling?

I think sprinklers may have to be a necessity, right?

[BartW]

Ok, 

 

So below are attached plans of what has been approved by Planning.

 

I read the Building Regs doc Part B, and implications may, indeed, be stipulated when it comes to meeting the "protected staircase" part.

 

The top floor is just a gym, and one could stipulate that means of exiting could be through one of the three bedrooms on the first floor (escape window), or down the stairs.

 

I wonder if an extensive sprinkler system would address all of the above effectively.

 

Thanks!

 

Bart

GH PL250 First and Top Floor Plan.pdf GH PL250 Ground Floor Plan.pdf

[DevilDamo]

To enable safe exit from the second floor via an escape window at first floor, you’d need to close off the stair at first floor level.

 

You’d need to check with Building Control whether they’d accept a domestic sprinkler system as opposed to a protected stair. As this is a new build, you’d probably need to check the BC requirements in conjunction with the new build warranty requirements. This is assuming a new build warranty will be taken out.

 

Is this house for you personally or a private client? If it’s the latter, do they mind potentially needing sprinklers? The water pressure to the dwelling should also be checked and deemed suitable.

 

There is quite an easy way to enclose the stair at ground floor level, which would prevent the need for sprinkles and first floor escape windows. It would involve some minor internal alterations but I can’t see them ruining the flow.

[BartW]

Hi,

This is our own home (hence my design freedom).

 

I have gone through five iterations of the design (when I mean iteration, I literally redesigned the whole house again, and again). The staircase has been one of the points which rather distorted the flow, or badly impacted room sizes and shapes upstairs. I would be keen to hear opinions on what might work best

 

Bart

[Mr Punter]

I am interested to see the first floor plan.

 

A protected stair would be loads better than sprinklers, but in reality would make little difference to safety if the kitchen / living door is left open at night.

 

Did you consider another WC in the utility?  There is lots of room in there.  You could then make the guest shower room en suite so they do not need to access it via public space, plus you have an extra loo if the guest bathroom is in use.

 

 

[BartW]

20 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I am interested to see the first floor plan.

 

A protected stair would be loads better than sprinklers, but in reality would make little difference to safety if the kitchen / living door is left open at night.

 

Did you consider another WC in the utility?  There is lots of room in there.  You could then make the guest shower room en suite so they do not need to access it via public space, plus you have an extra loo if the guest bathroom is in use.

 

 

 

I attached my plans in the previous post. Hopefully, they show?

 

As for the loo in the utility, I was keen not to have one there. Even if I have to sacrifice the Guest Bedroom size, and take it in a tad. The utility will house the water tank, my AV Hub, "HER Kingdom", and likes, so ideally not a toilet

 

Bart

 

 

[Mr Punter]

Thanks I see the plans now.  I cannot work out how the stairs work.  To make the plans easier to read it would help to have them all the same way round and an arrow on the stairs pointing up.

[BartW]

Hey,

the stairs from ground to first are as follows:

 

 

 

 

stairs from first to top floor as below:

 

 

 

Bart

[ProDave]

I am still not understanding where the stairs from the ground floor appear on the first floor?

 

All I am seeing is the stairs from the first floor to the  second floor.

[Mr Punter]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I am still not understanding where the stairs from the ground floor appear on the first floor?

 

All I am seeing is the stairs from the first floor to the  second floor.

 

The first floor landing is at the base of the arrow.

[Mr Punter]

BC will want a fair amount of detail for a full plans application (which is what you will need).  They need full details of how each part of the regs will be met, shown on plans, with notes and calculations as appropriate.

[BartW]

25 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

BC will want a fair amount of detail for a full plans application (which is what you will need).  They need full details of how each part of the regs will be met, shown on plans, with notes and calculations as appropriate.

I suppose this is where having a "real architect" comes in handy...

[DevilDamo]

You don’t need an architect but only a designer who is familiar with and can incorporate the BR’s into the proposals. You may find this ‘process’ will result in some design changes, both internally and externally.

 

You mentioned the plans you have uploaded are those that have received Planning approval. Have you therefore designed and received approval without BR’s in mind?

[BartW]

2 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

You don’t need an architect but only a designer who is familiar with and can incorporate the BR’s into the proposals. You may find this ‘process’ will result in some design changes, both internally and externally.

 

You mentioned the plans you have uploaded are those that have received Planning approval. Have you therefore designed and received approval without BR’s in mind?

I was assuming from start that:

- downstairs loo might need adjusting in width, thus affecting the Guest Bedroom

- open plan everything might call for sprinklers. Similarly the staircase. 
 

I read BR back to front for things like sizes of the stairs, clear passages, dims, etc, so was assuming little else may have to be changed. 
 

External elevations being a combination of natural slate (non-comb) and wood slats might call for additional product treatment. 
 

All in all, I was not expecting anything else to be made to undergo any drastic changes, hence submission and approval of plans as shown. 
 

or am I missing something substantial here? ?