Architect...

[Mulberry View]

So, we've seen a few Architects now and it's pretty clear that there's a polar divide between them in cost. I have to admit that none of them have really wow'd me in any respect. Some have been frighteningly expensive, but with some ambitious designs in their portfolio, while others have been more modestly priced, yet might still deliver what we want. I wish I could afford to get a concept design from more than one Architect!

 

Anyway, I've spoken with one today that has inspired me. He has a website full of stunning designs, of varying levels of complexity and imagination. He comes from a big practice background, but now works as a Husband and Wife team (that resonates well with us). He has tangible projects that I can look at and have been able to view one of the planning cases of one of the more complex ones to see how he deals with planners and was pretty inspired.

 

We are looking for someone who is happy with our desire to be VERY hands-on, he is very flexible. He isn't local, but has costed in a site-visit and a promise of a functional working relationship for the duration he is involved.

 

His fee is £7500+VAT to get us through planning. There are some ancillary costs, such as 3D modelling and CGI, which I would like at least a bit of.

 

In essence, we aren't looking for a basic square build, we are looking for a balance of creativity, but not over-ambitious. My theory is that if a good design comes out of this that makes such good use of space that he saves us even 5 square metres compared to a 'cheaper' Architect, then he has paid for himself. Am I being rational there? He is pretty much double the price of our 2nd choice, who isn't anywhere near as inspiring.

 

He hasn't costed up the Technical design phase, he has said that as much as he would like to do that, we are free to out-source that if we wish. Is this a normal thing to do? Presumably an Architectural Technician locally will be happy to work with his design in the unlikely event that we don't use the original designer for that next phase?

[Conor]

Only thing I'd say is... You need to connect and get on with your architect. It's a creative partnership. Pick the one that feels right. The one you'd invite to invite round to dinner or go for a pint with.

[Big Jimbo]

He sounds great, and imo a decent price.......Have fun

[Thorfun]

agree with the comments above. we were just fortunate that the architect we 'clicked' with also happened to be the cheapest! although I think he made a mistake on the costings and under charged us but I'm not complaining at that.

 

I think you have to go with your gut feeling on this one as you don't know what they'll come up with until you've signed up! although, ours charged a small fee for a 'feasibility' study so if after that we weren't happy with his designs we could've walked away without having spent too much.

 

good luck and we all look forward to seeing how the plans develop. maybe you should think about starting a blog? ? 

[Mulberry View]

Just now, Thorfun said:

agree with the comments above. we were just fortunate that the architect we 'clicked' with also happened to be the cheapest! although I think he made a mistake on the costings and under charged us but I'm not complaining at that.

 

I think you have to go with your gut feeling on this one as you don't know what they'll come up with until you've signed up! although, ours charged a small fee for a 'feasibility' study so if after that we weren't happy with his designs we could've walked away without having spent too much.

 

good luck and we all look forward to seeing how the plans develop. maybe you should think about starting a blog? ? 

 

Oh, I definitely will. You'll be sick of the questions. ?

 

[DevilDamo]

It is quite common for ‘Planning’ architects to get you over that first hurdle and then the Technical side is dealt with by a third party. I personally don’t like that arrangement as (from experience) it can be a bit of a ball ache to make Planning drawings work as you don’t know their way of thinking. I used to take on Planning approved schemes but the majority resulted in re-designs either internally or externally which resulted in re-submitted Planning applications. On that basis and if I was in your position, I’d seriously consider the original person/company to quote for the full package.

[Mulberry View]

11 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

It is quite common for ‘Planning’ architects to get you over that first hurdle and then the Technical side is dealt with by a third party. I personally don’t like that arrangement as (from experience) it can be a bit of a ball ache to make Planning drawings work as you don’t know their way of thinking. I used to take on Planning approved schemes but the majority resulted in re-designs either internally or externally which resulted in re-submitted Planning applications. On that basis and if I was in your position, I’d seriously consider the original person/company to quote for the full package.

 

Yes, that's what we're inclined to think. I'm of the opinion that it's nice to have the choice, but I suspect we'll use the original guy providing we still get on well with him at that stage!

 

He's been reluctant to give me a guide price on the Technical stage as we have no real idea at the moment, but I'm expecting it to be around £4-5k based on his pricing for the previous stages, does this sound about right?

[DevilDamo]

It really depends on his pricing structure. Although there is a lot of money in Planning, my Building Regulation/working drawings are normally the more expensive of the two.

[Bozza]

The company that built my house did a design and build service that I went with.  What that involved was basically me designing a house and them drawing it.  As a result I do have some design regrets mainly that the house is a bit vanilla and I feel I have some layout errors that an architect would have picked up on. 
 

If I had my time over again, if I’d found a reasonable priced architect that understood my likes and dislikes, I would have gone with an architect.    If you like his/her portfolio, the price sounds fair, and you get on I would go for it.

[the_r_sole]

Tbh I find that really strange... I'd always want to be involved from start to finish with any project, going through the technical design stage you are still making key design decisions on how things are put together, if anything this is a more critical stage for making sure the design intention is carried through to construction.

Maybe it's just me!

[Mulberry View]

28 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

Tbh I find that really strange... I'd always want to be involved from start to finish with any project, going through the technical design stage you are still making key design decisions on how things are put together, if anything this is a more critical stage for making sure the design intention is carried through to construction.

Maybe it's just me!

 

I had always assumed that to be the case too. I've spoken with another couple today that used our Architect and he wanted to charge them £13k for the Technical drawings, I think that's going to have to be factored. They used someone else to do theirs.

[SimonD]

On 24/11/2020 at 19:48, Mulberry View said:

So, we've seen a few Architects now and it's pretty clear that there's a polar divide between them in cost. I have to admit that none of them have really wow'd me in any respect. Some have been frighteningly expensive, but with some ambitious designs in their portfolio, while others have been more modestly priced, yet might still deliver what we want. I wish I could afford to get a concept design from more than one Architect!

 

Anyway, I've spoken with one today that has inspired me. He has a website full of stunning designs, of varying levels of complexity and imagination. He comes from a big practice background, but now works as a Husband and Wife team (that resonates well with us). He has tangible projects that I can look at and have been able to view one of the planning cases of one of the more complex ones to see how he deals with planners and was pretty inspired.

 

We are looking for someone who is happy with our desire to be VERY hands-on, he is very flexible. He isn't local, but has costed in a site-visit and a promise of a functional working relationship for the duration he is involved.

 

His fee is £7500+VAT to get us through planning. There are some ancillary costs, such as 3D modelling and CGI, which I would like at least a bit of.

 

In essence, we aren't looking for a basic square build, we are looking for a balance of creativity, but not over-ambitious. My theory is that if a good design comes out of this that makes such good use of space that he saves us even 5 square metres compared to a 'cheaper' Architect, then he has paid for himself. Am I being rational there? He is pretty much double the price of our 2nd choice, who isn't anywhere near as inspiring.

 

He hasn't costed up the Technical design phase, he has said that as much as he would like to do that, we are free to out-source that if we wish. Is this a normal thing to do? Presumably an Architectural Technician locally will be happy to work with his design in the unlikely event that we don't use the original designer for that next phase?

 

Having gone through all this myself, my first piece of advice on this is to talk to some of this architect's previous clients. Don't decide just on your personal interaction. The architect we eventually used (see below)

who we 'clicked' with turned out to be a nightmare when it came to delivering on the content of the project - e.g. the actual drawings and doing the admin stuff. He could definitely talk the talk...OMG. In addition, our architect was terrible at producng the construction drawings often trying to avoid producing the stuff by telling us that the builders will just change it all anyway so there isn't any point.. not entirely untrue but you do need an appropriate balance! Since our frustrating experience I've got to know some other local architects who run or work in medium to large practices and some who are one man/woman bands and the general flavour is that it's unusual to get one that does both the design and technical stuff well - often they'll have strengths on one side or the other. The architecture practice can balance this by passing the work on to the right person. We found it impossible to find someone who was willing to work with the existing drawings to provide the construction/technical detailing but maybe that's just a feature of where we're based.

 

The other side of the coin is that the first designer we went for, an architectual technician, we decided more on the price and as a pragmatic choice - he was very technical but we didn't like any of his designs. This cost us a couple of grand and a good 6 months of wasted time and effort.

 

Depending on the design of the house, the technical detailing could be a lot more than the design.

 

Overall, I'm still happy we went for the inspiring choice, despite the frustrations we experienced

 

Not sure if that directly helps you but hope it does provide some food for thought.

[Ferdinand]

You need to consider what happens re: refusal, Appeals and so on - if you do one you would probably need his continued advice.

 

Also how you will handle the supply of drawings and models to other professionals.

[Jilly]

I really wish I hadn't changed architects for the Building Control drawings, it caused no end of problems and was a false economy.They weren't invested in the original design and planning constraints. 

[Mulberry View]

@SimonD - Thanks for that detailed reply. In all honesty, we aren't very comfortable with moving the design onto someone else to have it turned into a Tech design, but I get what you're saying about the expertise. I'm certainly not up for spending potentially £20 for the design and tech drawings. Terrifies me.

 

On the contrary, our second place Architect choice is very reasonable in cost terms, my only reservation is whether he is creative enough. I'm hoping we know this at concept/feasibility stage, so might risk having to cut our losses at that point or invest some more money with him to coax a design out. He has the benefit of working in a larger practice and is local.

[Mulberry View]

2 minutes ago, Jilly said:

I really wish I hadn't changed architects for the Building Control drawings, it caused no end of problems and was a false economy.They weren't invested in the original design and planning constraints. 

 

That opinion is pretty much where we're at and I think will be the end of the line for the original guy, despite a good feeling for his design ability.

[Jilly]

4 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

@SimonD - Thanks for that detailed reply. In all honesty, we aren't very comfortable with moving the design onto someone else to have it turned into a Tech design, but I get what you're saying about the expertise. I'm certainly not up for spending potentially £20 for the design and tech drawings. Terrifies me.

 

I've easily spent £20k on fees.. its all a bit scary...there's a ton of stuff you don't know about yet, which makes you feel like people are ripping you off, when they aren't necessarily. 

 

Have you bought a plot or got outline planning?

[Mulberry View]

2 minutes ago, Jilly said:

I've easily spent £20k on fees.. its all a bit scary...there's a ton of stuff you don't know about yet, which makes you feel like people are ripping you off, when they aren't necessarily. 

 

Have you bought a plot or got outline planning?

 

We own the land, it's essentially a sub-division.

 

A pre-plan was put in last year and had a better outcome than expected. I do feel pretty confident I have to say (though I might be about to be taught a lesson!)

 

It's a substantial plot, with no view from the street, so I can't imagine there being an obligation to blend in with existing properties. The closest 2 neighbours are part of a <30 year old development and are hidden behind a thick tree line, it's hard to see their houses from the plot even now that the leaves have fallen. There is a mixture of properties all around, of varying ages and styles. We have an access issue, but I've proposed a solution to Highways that they are happy with as it affects our current property even without the subdivision, so I would like a solution to it anyway. I had wanted to get some clarity on that before we spend on design and have a solution to put in with the planning application. There are no TPO's, but some good trees that we want to keep.

The land itself is virginal. Prior to the current house being built, the plot was a field and the part we want to build on.

 

What significant unexpected stuff did you encounter out of interest?

[Jilly]

I've done the same, but converted an existing building, so Ecology issues, Bat surveys, licences etc have cost £6K alone. I also used a Planning Consultant, (about £2K) altho in the end, the architect got a really good relationship with the assigned planning officer, and this was key. 

 

If preplan was favourable, you will likely make the most 'profit' on that (see other thread). They will want to see designs, something of 'exceptional architectural merit' can occasionally be build in the middle of a field. 

 

You'll have to get your head around the costs and the implications of getting it wrong eg CGT, VAT. That said, you are in a very favourable position, most self builders have a headache finding a site. 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Jilly

[Ferdinand]

You need to consider whether it will count as a "Backlands" development (single property built behind the line of all the rest along the street), what the policy is on that, and how you will address it if so.

 

F

[Mulberry View]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

You need to consider whether it will count as a "Backlands" development (single property built behind the line of all the rest along the street), what the policy is on that, and how you will address it if so.

 

F

 

Whilst it appears to be a 'backland' development, there was no mention of any concern in this regard in the pre-plan. The indication of the size and placement of a home on the plot was not accurate for where it will actually be (the house was larger and in direct line of sight to the current house), in fact what we build will be even more sympathetically placed for the surrounding properties and not really visible to anyone.

 

They were concerned about trees, but so are we. Our 'likely' build area takes this into consideration. We want trees, so anything that has to be taken down will be replaced anyway.

After satisfying highways that we have taken care of the visibility issue from the driveway, my next concern is access for large lorries for deliveries. This will be a challenge for us for sure. But I'm hoping that if we go for ICF, as is looking likely, the deliveries won't be so cumbersome/heavy. Although I've not explored it, I think we'd be unlikely to get a full-sized cement mixer up the drive, so maybe piping concrete in will be an unavoidable factor that we will just have to cost in, along with craning other supplies in, like roof trusses etc.

 

Beyond that, the next biggest challenge is how to screen the bank of garages that form most our Southern boundary. It's just a cosmetic thing.

 

Our tree survey highlighted a hefty 100+ year old Lime tree that's not quite on our property, but is in grave condition (excuse the pun, it's in the Church grounds!). The surveyor told me that I really have a duty to report his concerns to the landowner and I'm worried that they might think I've got an agenda to get rid of it, but it's condition it's obvious really, it has branches big enough to do serious damage if/when they start breaking off.

 

I appreciate the open discussion from everyone, it's good to hear about the challenges we might face.

[Mulberry View]

We've moved on a little from this. We ruled out the guy I mentioned in the original post, we resonated with so many things he'd said, but still didn't feel as we wanted to for the money. Plus the fact that he's not local just didn't sit very well with me.

 

However, we have met what we think is a great Architect. We resonated with her immediately, she seems to genuinely love our project, she loved out plot, we have lots in common. When she left, we looked at each other and breathed a sigh of relief. We thought we'd really cracked it. We felt excited.

 

Then the quote came in. HOLYYYY F*********CK. She's seriously expensive, but everything else is right. I'm desperate to be able to rationalise it somehow, is it possible that a great architect could be worth this extra outlay? We can easily see our planning/design costs topping £20k if we go down this route, a sizeable chunk out of our £300k starting budget and a good £5000, even £10,000 above several others we've had quotes from.

The biggest component of the quote is the Tech drawings at £9400+VAT. She has quoted for RIBA stage 4a, she says that the level of drawings they supply are better suited to a novice self-builder and will be important to me, as opposed to an experienced builder who will know many of the details from experience. I've asked her for an example output, but perhaps you helpful bunch will offer some support? Will I, as a confident/intelligent intermediate DIY'er need these fancy-schmancy drawings? Or can I have her re-quote for the 'standard' level of service?

 

She can trim a bit of money off by not packaging up the service for discharge of planning conditions and planning committee representation etc. She says that they include a mid-level fee for that on the basis that some they win on, some they lose on (financially I mean). We could apparently take the risk on that, paying her by the hour if needed. For a plot that doesn't overlook anyone, will only really be visible to 2 other properties, isn't in a conservation area, is in the development zone, has no TPO's, no existing building on the plot, already has a favourable pre-plan outcome, what is the likelihood that planning will be a complicated affair?

 

 

[Bored Shopper]

7 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

...not packaging up the service for discharge of planning conditions and planning committee representation etc. ...

 

Not every proposal goes to the planning committee (unless this is mandatory in wherever you live). So if you are lucky this may not even happen in your project.

Being on extra-good terms with all potential neighbours before submission would also help minimise objections and hence over-complicating the case and hence the planning committee. (requires some legwork, minimal budget and a lot of sucking up).

 

With regards to discharge of conditions, we paid our PM on an hourly basis to discharge these. Probably because we just could not be bothered to fight with him any further. IN essence, he could not care less, and I ended up chasing the planning officer, producing the required evidence of compliance, doing basic drawings etc. Totally doable. Our PM claimed he could not get hold of the officer for 3 weeks - I picked up the phone and got throught in 5 min.... In essence all discharge of conditions is about proving that you've taken the necessary steps. E.g., you must present evidence that your side windows are obscured (send them the paperwork from your window people and some pick), that your ground has been checked for contamination (send them the relevant report), that your fancy new fence is in line with the street vernacular (take a few pics and send). Not really worth paying someone a heap of buck to do this for you.

[the_r_sole]

On 13/12/2020 at 23:30, Mulberry View said:

However, we have met what we think is a great Architect. We resonated with her immediately, she seems to genuinely love our project, she loved out plot, we have lots in common. When she left, we looked at each other and breathed a sigh of relief. We thought we'd really cracked it. We felt excited.

 

Then the quote came in. HOLYYYY F*********CK. She's seriously expensive, but everything else is right. I'm desperate to be able to rationalise it somehow, is it possible that a great architect could be worth this extra outlay? We can easily see our planning/design costs topping £20k if we go down this route, a sizeable chunk out of our £300k starting budget and a good £5000, even £10,000 above several others we've had quotes from.

 

I think you've answered your own question there, the best people cost the best money generally! 

Only you can decide if the value is there in having someone you really want to work with and will trust to give you what you want out of the process.

It sounds like they have got everything bang on, in terms of what you've asked for (not necessarily what you want to pay for) and they've understood your pain points.

We have offered a similar package in the past of a building regs+ package for self builders, the building regs drawings are made for the purpose of proving the design meets the buidling regs so there will be a good bit of interpretation on the specifics for construction - again it sounds like they've offered you the best fit for your needs but it's up to you whether you see the value in it - I would imagine that the drawing package won't be significantly different but the specifics will be (i.e. they might show threshold details for specific manufacturers doors in your specific construction etc)

 

A word of advice, don't go down the hourly route when you can't define the scope into very small chunks, no one likes working on an hourly rate and it introduces a bit of mis-trust when you get the invoices in - the lump sum route is better for everyone.

 

The planning conditions and committee service is an interesting one - yes, not every application will go to committee, but if it does, then you have the worry of how much in additional fees you are racking up, if it goes to a second hearing etc there could be significant unknowns in there.

Conditions generally should be straightforward enough to discharge, but again there is potential in there for something to become sticky so it's all about your attitude to risk, whether you want to be certain of the maximum costs or want to be hopeful of the minimum costs

Edited December 15, 2020 by the_r_sole

[Mr Punter]

Why not get her to quote for as far as the planning application stage and after that they agree to hand over CAD versions of the material should you choose not to go with them for building regs?