zoothorn

My (rotten) ASHP. Update.

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I've re-read this whole thread @zoothorn.

I'm left wondering whether you might be (figuratively) using sticky tape  to block the holes on a cullendar? Expensive sticky tape. Might you need to think about other ways out of the problem?

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2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

I've re-read this whole thread @zoothorn.

I'm left wondering whether you might be (figuratively) using sticky tape  to block the holes on a cullendar? Expensive sticky tape. Might you need to think about other ways out of the problem?

 

I'm firstly trying to figure out your post TBC.

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3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

I have kept out of this for various reasons, but it seems to me that the ASHP fitted is undersized.

Where and what loss calculations done by the installer. These used to be part of the MCS protocol.

 

Hi ST. Well I don't think so, I was first pencilled in for a 5kw, then they went 7.5kw just to be safe (good job.. cos Id built an extention in the time between surveyor visit & installation!! this added only 2 extra rads tho, one smallish, so I think almost a 'perfect fit' now for a 7.5kW @ 8x double rads, 2 small/ 4 medium/ just 2 big silly f-o ones).

Edited by zoothorn

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4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

don't think so

Have you got your heat loss calculations to show us all.

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1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

Have you got your heat loss calculations to show us all.

 

Sorry Ive no idea what this is- I haven't been given this info I don't think.

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Just now, zoothorn said:

Sorry Ive no idea what this is- I haven't been given this info I don't think.

Without knowing what your heat losses are, you cannot possibly say that your ASHP is the correct size.

So I suggest you ask the installer to show you the calculations, then you can work out if the system is designed, and working as it should.

Or you can keep thinking that everything is 'just wrong'.

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Regarding the noise.. Google found this which is probably a different model but..

 

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/renewables-1/arotherm/arotherm-5-15kw-inst-868573.pdf

 



Unsuitable additives may cause changes in the components, noises in heating mode and possibly subsequent damage. ▶ Do not use any unsuitable frost and corrosion
protection agents, biocides or sealants.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Without knowing what your heat losses are, you cannot possibly say that your ASHP is the correct size.

So I suggest you ask the installer to show you the calculations, then you can work out if the system is designed, and working as it should.

Or you can keep thinking that everything is 'just wrong'.

 

If I have professional installers & surveyors to make these calculations for me & choose the unit accordingly, there's nothing suggesting it is incorrect for the house. The house might be incorrect for it.. now that is feasable, yes. I can't change the house tho.

 

I can keep thing X is wrong ST.. if X is wrong, ok? The pump was wrong. It was changed.. & now its right.

 

This solves half the noise problem only. The compressor noise entering house is also 'wrong' & I'll say it till the cows come home, & this was agreed too by 2 installers & 1 vaillant engineer. So I hope this might get changed too.

 

The system is designed in a certain way. It is not neccessarily working 'wrong'. But if its just made this way, & if its as noisy as to wake me up in the next room, & its designed to go on/off overnight.. then this is most definitely wrong too.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

If I have professional installers & surveyors to make these calculations for me & choose the unit accordingly, there's nothing suggesting it is incorrect for the house. The house might be incorrect for it.. now that is feasable, yes

I have nothing more to add.

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can you not get them to move the outside unit further away from the house ?

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22 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

can you not get them to move the outside unit further away from the house ?

 

I'm not sure moving it even 3m would make much difference, if the sound is as bad outside where noise is made.. to imnside where its transmitted. Besides, I don't have the room to tbh: it just has to go up my back passage, & there's only one spot it can go here tbh. I think they lose efficiency the further they go-? But I hadn't thought of this so thatnks for your thoughts tho DJ.

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On 18/10/2020 at 16:33, PeterW said:


I take it that an installer has told you this as he’s got a “special deal on the Hong Weng Chinese Heat Pump Company” it’s-a-rebadged-Mitsubishi-trust-me-love Heat Pump he thinks you should use ..??

 

Mitsubishi are definitely not unavailable and are in stock in the U.K. with plenty of suppliers !!

No, this is with about 4 suppliers in our area and Nationally. They were short of stock before they went on different working patterns due to Covid apparently. I just want to make sure that we can actually get a pump and have it installed before the end of March! This scheme wasn't very well thought through... hmmm...... government not very good at planning..... 

Edited by gaschick

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1 minute ago, gaschick said:

No, this is with about 4 suppliers in our area and Nationally. They were short of stock before they went on different working patterns due to cover apparently. I just want to make sure that we can actually get a pump and have it installed before the end of March! This scheme wasn't very well thought through... hmmm...... government not very good at planning..... 

 

OK so this is an install via the Green Heat scheme ..? That’s different as they may be purchasing directly and not via distributors.
 

These guys have stock of a lot of the mainstream units for delivery - any reason you want Ecodan ..? 
 

 

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5 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

OK so this is an install via the Green Heat scheme ..? That’s different as they may be purchasing directly and not via distributors.
 

These guys have stock of a lot of the mainstream units for delivery - any reason you want Ecodan ..? 
 

 

No, not particurlrly fussed which manufacturer it is. We have been quoted by two separate suppliers for an Ecodan 11.2kW unit. And an LG V 16kW system thus far. Yes, we are hoping to go with the Green Homes Grant. The Government are never going to 'give' away £5000 up front again!

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Just now, gaschick said:

No, not particurlrly fussed which manufacturer it is. We have been quoted by two separate suppliers for an Ecodan 11.2kW unit. And an LG V 16kW system thus far. Yes, we are hoping to go with the Green Homes Grant. The Government are never going to 'give' away £5000 up front again!

Except, I am quite fussed. I want to buy once for a system that lasts, not have to replace the pump after 7 years. I am thinking of my Miele washing machine which is A+ rated and still going strong after 15+ years. 'Immer Besser' and all that.

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49 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I'm not sure moving it even 3m would make much difference, ...

 

'Cladding it' with some sort of housing - while allowing ample air circulation?  @zoothorn, could you photograph the offending bit of equipment : might help us help you (?)

The thing is, if someone like @SteamyTea says you need your calclations for us to help you, you really do need them. Might you be able to ask for them?

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On 23/10/2020 at 14:16, Temp said:

Regarding the noise.. Google found this which is probably a different model but..

 

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/renewables-1/arotherm/arotherm-5-15kw-inst-868573.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Temp.

 

Grateful for finding this- I actually missed this reply apologies/ just going over the replies again now. That's obviously a level of tech above the customer, but see the bits you're pointing to. Additives? I'm not sure/ or anything similar possibly been added, I'll certainly ask engineer, if he comes again, which seems reasonably likely.

 

Interestingly, again the rather basic noise info on this is solely re. the outside unit. Nothing even suggesting any inside unit makes, or, carries the noise in from the outside unit. No mention even of the pipes between which carry the noise in.

--

Well today, I wake up to no rads on at all. So another problem. Controller says warning: Low Water Pressure, & a spanner symbol. Urgh.

 

This is the 3rd time this has happened. 2nd time coinciding (seemingly) with the damn pump in the box in the cupboard incessantly whirring on/off/on loudly overnight. I called my installer, & for the 2nd time told to manually open two taps on my cylinder reaching down & around whilst phone in other hand. Far from ideal. So, yet another call today presumably asked to do the same again.

 

This seems to be a recurring thing, stops the system functioning, & that I should manually rectify it after a £4 call. Would Mrs. Miggins @ no.73 be expected to do this, outside in her cold garage, bending down to ground level fiddling with taps mid-winter, arthritic fingers et al Vailant-?

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The loss of pressure is probably a leak in your plumbing.  There should be a pressure gauge and you should be able to see that slowly dropping day by day until it gets too low and flags an error.

 

As I believe you are using all the old existing radiators this is probably an existing leak in the existing plumbing somewhere.  Hardly the fault of the installers if some old existing plumbing has a leak?  Someone needs to find it.  If YOU can find it then it will make the job for the plumber to fix it quicker and cheaper.  As you are not seeing water dripping anywhere it is probably under the floor somewhere.

 

P.S.  An oil or gas boiler connected to the same set of radiators with the same leak would give exactly the same low pressure fault. this is NOT an "issue" with the ASHP.

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@PeterW Peter- would you know about this low water pressure situation with these systems? I get told on phone by installer to open taps on the cylinder 20 secs or so, then see guage go from ~ 1bar up to ~ 1.75 bar.. & 'fixed'. But surely if being asked to do 3x in 3 months this is symptomatic of an issue, so not fixed, or is it something a user should just expect to do ? (like say car users expected to open car engine top, pour in oil).

 

I've never run a CH system before, rarely actually ever had them in houses Ive lived, so I don't know what's expected of the user.

 

thx zH

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Top up of a new system can occur as air is pushed round the system but Should not continue. Regarding the ASHP it should be “fit for purpose” or it contravenes the sales of goods act.

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42 minutes ago, ProDave said:

The loss of pressure is probably a leak in your plumbing.  There should be a pressure gauge and you should be able to see that slowly dropping day by day until it gets too low and flags an error.

 

As I believe you are using all the old existing radiators this is probably an existing leak in the existing plumbing somewhere.  Hardly the fault of the installers if some old existing plumbing has a leak?  Someone needs to find it.  If YOU can find it then it will make the job for the plumber to fix it quicker and cheaper.  As you are not seeing water dripping anywhere it is probably under the floor somewhere.

 

P.S.  An oil or gas boiler connected to the same set of radiators with the same leak would give exactly the same low pressure fault. this is NOT an "issue" with the ASHP.

 

All new rads. 1 tiny leak in 1 rad only I noticed just after install.. but  installers came back fixed/ nipped up. No signs anywhere of any other leak: no pipes were laid under floors, all accessable (none boxed in yet) no sign of a leak anywhere or Id have seen a damp patch or something.

 

ProDave its quite obviously a fault with it. The 1st thing Vaillant Renewables call handlers have to sort out -the only thing they're technically trained to rectify over the phone- is low water pressure faults. This points to the system, not me, or the installers either, at issue.

 

 

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No I maintain it is not a "fault" with the ASHP.  If it is all new pipes and all new rads then there is still a leak somewhere, so the installer should come and find and fix that leak. But you would have had exactly the same issue if it had been a gas boiler. 

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As @ProDave said a gas or oil boiler would also stop working if the pressure gets too low. Somehow youre going to have to find that leak or it will keep happening. 

 

Is there a pressure relief valve and does that leak a little water when the system is hot?

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1 hour ago, ProDave said:

No I maintain it is not a "fault" with the ASHP.  If it is all new pipes and all new rads then there is still a leak somewhere, so the installer should come and find and fix that leak. But you would have had exactly the same issue if it had been a gas boiler. 

 

 Ok understood- so we agree there's a fault, but your point is its the installers rather than the system/ ok I get this, but its a situation they continually have to either guide users thru on the phone, or, ideally they have to come back & fix time after time which they shouldn't be doing.

 

I was told 'air' was likely the reason this time & again told to let in water for 20 secs & watch guage dial etc. A leak, or trapped I don't know. But if its recurring then I maintain its just the way the system 'is' & not the fault of the innitial installers. If I had the vaillant engineer out to change the pump only a week ago, & if this is linked to that (told yes prolly) I maintain this should be for Vaillant to rectify, not the innitial installers.

 

Anyway I guess I'll just have to do this each month. Can we at least agree that this isn't ideal & not something a user should be expected to be repeatedly doing?

 

 

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There is nothing intrinsically wrong with an ASHP that will make it leak and lose pressure. So it must be a leak in the pipework. You cannot blame Vailant for that, and why should the ASHP manufacturer keep sending someone to fix a fault that is not theirs?

 

It is whoever you paid to install the system that should be coming out to fix the problem.

 

It should not lose pressure and it should not need topping up.  Mine has been running for over 2 years now without losing pressure. The only time it does, is if I have to deliberately let the pressure off if I want to make alterations, but it's at least 2 years since I have done that and no need to top up.

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