Jeremy Harris Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, Russdl said: @newhome We have to reverse our wheelie bin 60m down the lane to the road. Just checked the distance we have to move ours and it's about 28m to the end of our drive. I've also just done a quick-and-dirty check on the distance from the nearest place a fire appliance could park (on our single track lane at the end of our drive - it wouldn't be able to get up our drive due to the change in slope) to the furthest point around the back of the house and it's damned close to the 45m limit, perhaps over it in reality with hoses draped over walls/fences. Interestingly, any fire appliance that did park at the end of our drive would need to reverse back up around 50m of single track road to leave. We are the same local authority as you, and same fire officer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russdl Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 hour ago, JSHarris said: We are the same local authority as you, and same fire officer... Infuriating isn't it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 A fire engine has 120m of hose reel on the appliance that is used for the initial attack at any house fire. The object is to control the fire using the least amount of water as this is converted into steam and anybody trapped inside or the firefighters doing the rescue do not want to cook themselves. By the time you need the larger size hose it is a point and shoot exercise and you are trying to contain that fire to one house and not set other houses on fire . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 10 hours ago, Russdl said: @Temp How should I go about arguing that point? Is there some document I can refer to? I hope you're right but I suspect you saw @Ed Davies comment earlier in the thread and one of you will definitely be correct: Planning and Building control are separate issues... Planning: Once you have planning permission it can only be changed in very exceptional circumstances and in some of those the planners have to pay compensation. This isn't one of those situations. The planners have no mechanism to change your existing approval but the issue could be raised should you make a revised application or a new application. For example if you needed planning permission for the garage then the fire brigade could object then. If you don't need planning approval to build the garage then they have no opportunity to object on those grounds. That's why its important to know if you can build the garage under permitted development rules (which are complicated if its near the plot boundary). Building Control: The BCOs job is to ensure your house meets the Building Regulations. It sounds like he noticed you couldn't comply with Part B and contacted the fire department to see if they would give him an excuse to bend the rules in your favour. As it happens they said no. So you will have to come up with some solution. In my case we discovered a window was too small. The BCO allowed us to keep the small window on the proviso that we improved the fire rating of the door to that room. Eg he bent the rules for us. If you provided a turning circle now that would keep the BCO happy but it might cause problems later when you need him back to approve the garage and he finds your house no longer complies. . Th 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMitchells Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 Good luck Russ, we orginally posted this question and in the end, we withdrew from the plot purchase. There was problems with trees increasing the foundation depths and the fire access problem, and the access was not great. I am hoping you dont have that many issues and you can come up with a solution.? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russdl Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 @Temp We’re investigating the sprinkler option that should ease the fire departments worries. But I’m still at a loss as to how that would help them reverse over 20m unless of course they won’t attend a fire if I have a sprinkler system! @TheMitchells I REALLY hope we find a solution as well. I’ll update when I have news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russdl Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Well, our architect has proposed a solution that BCO are happy with and it all looks good on paper, but the paper doesn't show the future garage... We will have a turning 'Y' for the fire engine to turn around on. For the sprinkler option we were looking at around £3K, apart from the fact that we wouldn't be able to provide 98 litres/minute!! flow rate so that would be around another £500 for a 1200 litre storage tank and £1K for a pump system, so the best part of £5K for the sprinkler system. I don't have a quote for a misting system yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Just go with this and build the garage after the house is signed off. If you want you can use a private Building Inspector for the garage but there should not be any issues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 On 10/01/2019 at 18:26, Temp said: If you provided a turning circle now that would keep the BCO happy but it might cause problems later when you need him back to approve the garage and he finds your house no longer complies. Does the BCO need to approve the garage? I didn't think they were normally relevant unless attached the house or of non traditional construction with windows facing the neighbours (all part of the fire aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russdl Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Mr Punter said: Just go with this and build the garage after the house is signed off Exactly, that's plan A, actually, it's more like X than A! 2 minutes ago, Bitpipe said: Does the BCO need to approve the garage? As I understand, it's also dependant on distance to boundaries as well and we plan to have it quite close to the eastern boundary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Where is the garage going? Just at the end of the top right arm of the turning space and I can't see a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russdl Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, ProDave said: Where is the garage going? Hopefully relatively close to the house and eastern boundary and big enough to put cars in and still use as a workshop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Russdl said: As I understand, it's also dependant on distance to boundaries as well and we plan to have it quite close to the eastern boundary https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/43/outbuildings/2 If the floor area of the building is between 15 square metres and 30 square metres, you will not normally be required to apply for building regulations approval providing that the building contains NO sleeping accommodation and is either at least one metre from any boundary or it is constructed substantially of non-combustible materials. Our garage is Timber Frame with insulation and is right on the boundary with neighbour, but as it is slate roof and cement board rendered, this was considered sufficient to exempt it from Building regs. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russdl Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 @Bitpipe That’s really useful, thanks for digging that out for me ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtop Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 slightly old post but we have just realised we will either have to have a sprinkler system or dry riser. ABsolutly no way a fire engine could get close and in any event as its a timber frame, on raised piles in the middle of a wood i dont mind fitting a sprinkler. One thing i did check was the appliances the local fire station had, and they have a toyota hilux and a small 4x4 quad bike with trailer for the many narrow roads in Looe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave carpenter Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Hi is there a width restriction for an ambulance? i have a maximum of 3.1 meter width in a couple of places down a track (the track leading to the field gate is approximately 100 meters then the barn is another 100 meters with no width limit)leading to my land which I would like to get planning permission on my barn I had to put a drop kerb in for access to the field ( local council stipulated this for planning permission of barn ) I know I can get round the fire engine access by installing a domestic sprinkler system Has anyone else had any problems with ambulance access ? Mandy thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russdl Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 @Dave carpenter I’ve never heard of any restrictions for ambulances, just fire appliances. The catch for us was how far they would have to reverse down the track after they’d put us out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave carpenter Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Ok thanks I have a mate who’s a fire engineer he said it would cost £3000 for the sprinkler system you need them at both exits and the kitchen just hope there is no width restriction for ambulance cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, Dave carpenter said: Ok thanks I have a mate who’s a fire engineer he said it would cost £3000 for the sprinkler system you need them at both exits and the kitchen just hope there is no width restriction for ambulance cheers Dave Worth checking on sprinkler costs, as they vary a fair bit. We looked at fitting a system (2 bedroom detached house) as the fire officer advised fitting one, but the cost was around £7,000, plus the cost of providing a back up water supply system (we have a private water supply). In general, a sprinkler system normally needs to cover the whole building, not just parts of it. The best and least disruptive, in terms of installation requirements and the damage caused if the system activates, were the mist systems. These seem to be extremely fast acting and have the really big advantage that they cause minimal water damage. Thankfully the prices for sprinkler systems should start to reduce, as they are a mandatory requirement on new builds in Wales now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said: Worth checking on sprinkler costs, as they vary a fair bit. We looked at fitting a system (2 bedroom detached house) as the fire officer advised fitting one, but the cost was around £7,000, plus the cost of providing a back up water supply system (we have a private water supply). In general, a sprinkler system normally needs to cover the whole building, not just parts of it. The best and least disruptive, in terms of installation requirements and the damage caused if the system activates, were the mist systems. These seem to be extremely fast acting and have the really big advantage that they cause minimal water damage. Thankfully the prices for sprinkler systems should start to reduce, as they are a mandatory requirement on new builds in Wales now. The mist systems are OK for just a kitchen but BC often want whole house coverage, which rules them out on cost grounds. Also, although people are concerned about water damage from sprinkler systems, they do not activate without a fire. Leaving a fire to burn unchecked or having the fire service attend to extinguish a blaze will cause a lot more damage than a single sprinkler head, which is all that would typically deploy for a fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave carpenter Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Hi yep that’s a good point about a must system (gas) if so they have to be changed every 5 years which is expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 30 minutes ago, Dave carpenter said: Hi yep that’s a good point about a must system (gas) if so they have to be changed every 5 years which is expensive The mist systems don't use any gas, they are just fine, high pressure, water spray systems, that use a lower volume of water than conventional sprinkler systems, and so place a lower demand on the water supply system. There is no requirement to replace mist systems after five years, only the normal inspection requirement. Gas fire suppression systems are generally far too dangerous to use in domestic buildings, and are only used in high fire risk commercial buildings, and only then with an interlock system so the system cannot be activated if there are people inside the building. One of the establishments I managed years ago had an anechoic chamber, lined with deep carbon-filled foam, and that had to have a gas fire suppression system. The safe working procedure for that building included locking off the fire suppression system before entering. The problem was that the CO2 flood system was designed to fill the building with CO2 within a few seconds, which would put out any fire, but equally would extinguish life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave carpenter Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Ok thanks I’ll look into them Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 Do you actually need planning permission to convert the barn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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