Extension- Last Stuff.

[zoothorn]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

I don't know the size of your stove but even assuming it is a small 5kW one, then if that struggles to heat ONE room, then there is no way a 7kW ASHP is going to heat the whole house.

 

As has been said many times, this heating system is not correct to heat this particular house, the installer who "designed" it has failed.

 

Probably all you can do now is regard it as background heating with something else to make up the short fall.  I don't envy you your heating bills but this is what you get with an old cottage.

Ok appreciate thoughts. Stove isnt a small one, its 7kw iirc. Nestor martin,efel.. so no china cheapie. I can get the main big room warm with it, but running it i think too high as a rule. But that shows just how much cold is mainly coming U P from under carpet in here.

 

With utmost respect, I just dont think its not correct.. i just think this house is too much of a asswip£ to heat with it. Anyone surveying can do numbers and stuff, in july, but until you spend time here when its cold numbers are meaningless i tell thee.

 

All im blaming the ch for, is being noisy.. and not getting rads into 4 th gear until ages, that i just need it to asap,  due to A) the house being a tw* t, and B) due to the noise im not able ( or want it to, tbh) to run it 'always ready to go into 4 th gear' overninght. Nothing else tho.

Edited December 3, 2020 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

On 01/12/2020 at 21:31, Declan52 said:

Why are you already prejudging the guys who could possibly fix your issues. Stay calm and have all the issues on paper so you don't get in a tizxy and forget something.

Don't forget this is a government scheme so there are higher avenues to go to if needed. 

Good point Declan. I'll bea4 this in mind, be nice not firm with them is my approach.

 

What I do admit fully, is not really knowing how these are meant to be operated, optimally.  No one tells you, the manual doesnt, so id expect noone runs them as they should, esp having prolly had old skool ch it replaced. Another failing of manual info imo.

 

It occurred to me yesterday you see, i concluded the wretched noise does - seem- to stop with the coming on of the heating, or rather, the heating compressor coming on. And also, turning whole fkn thing off at mains ( as im doing  overnight to sleep now), and when i turn it on at 7am or so the noise starts immediately.... but if i press Reset..... heating starts, as expected, and overrides the wretched noise.

 

So noise is the pump ramping up to highest level 3 lets call it. It does it on mains turn on, in ' heating prerun' mode (only found this displayed afte4 going to the 'live indicator' when i heard it on mains turn on at 6.30am today). And it does it coinciding with temp dropping to 4*, or sometimes 3.5*, sometimes 3*.. usually overnight.

 

SO. If the heating coming on makes it stop.... then i might be able to keep it at bay, by leaving heating on overnight, plus if i then were to manually drop the desired temp down to 12* say 11 pm.................. maybe just maybe i can keep the noise at bay, overnight. But im still in tenterhooks waiting, expecting, hardly relaxing.

 

Speak of the devil... wretched noise jus5 started, 3 pm, coinciding with 3.5* on controller. Now i just dialed in a degree up, to get the heating compressor to engage/ come on... and this has stopped it. So i can now conclude, that the wretched noise will - still- come on overnight, whenever it wants to... unless... the heating compressor is active at the same time. Ie the compressor - has- to be on, murmuring away, in active mode, in order to override the wretched pump noise. If the compressor gets room up to desired temp, and trips off.. I'm always at the mercy of the wretched noise starting. So its impossible to live with, having the system on at the mains, overnight, so i will always be cold in the morning. Unless vaillant can establish what the wretched noise actually is, and bloody stop it tmrw. Which ive no confidence, after 2 engineers coming here specifically to make it stop and failing to already.

Edited December 3, 2020 by zoothorn

[Declan52]

So set the thermostat to 30 and leave it on. It will never get your room that hot so according to your research won't make this noise overnight. 

I couldn't be arsed looking back over this complete topic but I'm pretty sure running this either all the time or all night long was discussed fairly early in the conversation. You could have saved yourself lots of unnecessary stress and maybe slept a few nights and maybe had a lukewarm house.

[zoothorn]

5 hours ago, joe90 said:

thats wot I said.  Not fit fir purpose.

 

@zoothorn, how did you heat the house before this was fitted? We’re you that cold before?

 

If this noise cant be rid, it certainly isn't fit for purpose. If it can be rid, no it doesn't warm the place.. but I wasnt expecting it to, just the 2 new rooms.. but you cant blame it for this.

 

You could blame the surveyor perhaps who shouldve said 'this house has no insulation.. it'll be useless, you need an oil thing' (no extention even started when he came). But then I had no idea this system wouldnt be able to heat this house. I suspected it couldnt though, I suspect none in the realms of 'normally sized' could as I said. I was never expecting it to either.

 

But, once Id put the 2 new rooms up, u-values blah blah and told put in this huge thick insulation etc, I certainly (& only) suspected it would heat these 2 rooms, only these; but it can't -not- because its unable to or that its not fit for purpose (the toasty lower room shows it can) but bc the top room construction isn't fit for purpose instead. I wasnt expecting -this-.

 

As I had a forest of super dry fallen wood, I used this > to feed the log burner like a train, only mostly successfully, often giving up & hunkering down with a mite of residual heat from it having gone upstairs (old bedroom directly above, youd think would benefit greatly from stove below.. but no way hosay, far too much cold entering this room/ won every time). But no forest anymore.. & no reliable log source to buy, ridiculous as that sounds in the wild west/ its only green you get mostly told its 2 yrs dried (usual bllx), so Ive had 3 fires only so far this autumn.. gotta look after my dwindling reserve you see for winter. This is where the new top room was meant to fill the gap: a hunker down day + night modern warm room. That was 50% of the whole design criteria spending £33k. So a huge dissapointment is an understatement.

 

 

[zoothorn]

3 hours ago, Declan52 said:

So set the thermostat to 30 and leave it on. It will never get your room that hot so according to your research won't make this noise overnight. 

I couldn't be arsed looking back over this complete topic but I'm pretty sure running this either all the time or all night long was discussed fairly early in the conversation. You could have saved yourself lots of unnecessary stress and maybe slept a few nights and maybe had a lukewarm house.

 

Declan, the heating compressor alone makes intrusive noise (intrusive enough alone to prevent me turning it on overnight). Surely running it like your suggesting is hugely prohibitively costly too.

 

What I dont understand, is how other people use theirs, what heat curve, what flow temp. How do they put up with heating on overnight, do they keep it on 24/7 & just dial in different temps during 24 hr period, like before bed get used to dialing it down, or do they set it in a 'set back' period (like I do, but it doesnt seem to be designed to work like this). Nothing is explained as to how to use it basically/ optimally/ how its designed to be, in any manual here, online, or by installers.

[zoothorn]

@Declan52 if I were to try your idea, 30* on permenantly, compressor will innevitably be 'active' constantly 24/7 heating rads. I am getting a silencer on it I keep forgetting this gesture addition tbh, so might be feasable for a test.

 

Would it tho be designed to be on like this, in any situation-? I dont know you see what the "usual" no. of times this heat compressor is meant to be 'active' (in a normal house). Id be worried on constantly it'd be waaay outside its normal mode (like revving a car 24/7) & burnt out.

 

Im willing to try anything within reason, if the silencer is effective enough. But getting an idea of how it usually works, say in your house (or a normal house- not this) is needed so I dont just ruin it, tho I do have a guarantee of course.

 

thanks zH

[PeterW]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

 

Would it tho be designed to be on like this, in any situation-? I dont know you see what the "usual" no. of times this heat compressor is meant to be 'active' (in a normal house). Id be worried on constantly it'd be waaay outside its normal mode (like revving a car 24/7) & burnt out.

Duty cycle on a heat pump is probably 75% so you won’t be doing it any damage long term or short term. I would get it to start warming the house then slowly turn the stat back down to a reasonable temperature, finally doing the setback overnight temperature when things have calmed down. 
 

 

 

[zoothorn]

@PeterW ok thats a good idea I'll give it a go.

 

When you say the 'setback', Im not quite sure whether this might mean as I have it now a moon symbol.. no heating on at night (meant to be totally inactive).. or.. can you do your 'own' setback, by simply leaving heating on (so a sun symbol, 24/7) and dialing it down to 10* at 10 pm or so-? if so, is this the way people run them overnight??

 

Does this arbitrary word 'setback' (like 'standby', sort of meaningless) only apply to this moon-symbol overnight system setting?

[PeterW]

The overnight setting is the setback setting. Drop it to 16°C to begin with as you won’t get as rapid a reaction to the heating requirement in the mornings if you drop it too far. 
 

 

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

The overnight setting is the setback setting. Drop it to 16°C to begin with as you won’t get as rapid a reaction to the heating requirement in the mornings if you drop it too far. 
 

 

 

 

Ok I was just wondering if I leave it on 24/7.. do I therefore -not- now have setback setting? or another way of asking it, am I sort of creating my own setback by keeping it on 24/7 & it dialing down to 16*, before bed for overnight 10pm-7am?

 

The temp's dropping badly- 7pm I had leccy blanket on full, small fan heater on @ 2/3rds, big rad on fairly hot, in the new top bedroom.. & I still felt cold lying on bed with a hat & scarf on (16.1* room temp, heating on all day). So I gotta do the hatch + loft jobs now asap. unbelievable.

[PeterW]

Stop turning it down manually ..! That will be part of the issue that you are over riding the control set points which could be causing issues...!  If you’re setting it to 10°C it may not be coming back up to temperature as it’s expecting to come back from 16/18°C so will not be quick or warm when you get up. 
 

Get them to set the unit up to do the following ;

 

6-10am 22°C

10-4pm 18°C

4-10pm 22°C

10-6am 18°C

7 day programme, all the same. 
 

Also get them to show you how to change the set temperatures - not the times - for those 22/18°C periods above. 

 

[zoothorn]

@PeterW but thats the way they told me its designed.. you come in 5.30pm & using the rotary dial, wing it up in 2 secs from 18* to 22*. The rotary dial is specifically designed to use the system like this. Thats all i know.

 

Now im confused..!

 

Cant understand the last line, why would i need to adjust the set temps (and what does this mean) for these specific times you mention?

 

 

[PeterW]

Yes but you turn it down to 10°C and go to bed..! And then wonder why it’s not warm in a morning ..??

 

My reasoning is that you may have to offset the temperature once things start to settle down

due to location of the thermostat. It is very unusual to have the master thermostat in an upstairs room. It is normally in a downstairs living space. So your temperature unit may be reading high so it may be that you have to set the unit temperature higher than normal, and that will be your settings which are not the same as what someone with a different layout and install would be. 
 

So get them to do the settings and you can always use the dial to change things in exceptions, but that should be in exceptions and not to make it work. 

 

[zoothorn]

10 hours ago, PeterW said:

Yes but you turn it down to 10°C and go to bed..! And then wonder why it’s not warm in a morning ..??

 

My reasoning is that you may have to offset the temperature once things start to settle down

due to location of the thermostat. It is very unusual to have the master thermostat in an upstairs room. It is normally in a downstairs living space. So your temperature unit may be reading high so it may be that you have to set the unit temperature higher than normal, and that will be your settings which are not the same as what someone with a different layout and install would be. 
 

So get them to do the settings and you can always use the dial to change things in exceptions, but that should be in exceptions and not to make it work. 

 

 

No Peter, the Vaillant guy set it to 10* overnight (in setback mode, moon symbol). Why? put very low, so it has every chance of being totally off/ silent. Ok the heating is silent, but as said the indoor box unit wakes up does its awful noise on/off regardlessly.. separate point.

 

But the heating comes on as set to at 6.30. Its been upped to a higher flow temp 55 degrees. Higher heat curve 1.2 zoothorns. So, what do I find, results-end, at the radiators, after this tweaking.. at lets say at 8am.. & ultimately what do I feel the room conditions to be?

 

So I turn on system at mains 6.30. It goes into 'heating compressor active' (after turning taps to rid the low pressure warning!). The desired temp is 20* from last night when it went off. I dial it up a wee bit to 22*. I leave it on like this until 1pm (dial it down to 18* until evening for eg).

 

Ok. 8am. Radiators are barely on, have been like this since 6.30. Rooms conditions: extremely cold. 9am, some semblence of warmth, but essentially rooms cold, 10 am the same, 11am the same >>>> all day, every room. APART FROM one, the workshop (@8am some warmth, 9am nicely warm, 10 almost too warm, 11 am defo so, open the door a bit: fantastic results in here, I must take this to heart).

[dpmiller]

If the workshop is so much warmer than the rest of the house, have you turned this radiator down a bit?

[zoothorn]

10 hours ago, PeterW said:

My reasoning is that you may have to offset the temperature once things start to settle down

It is very unusual to have the master thermostat in an upstairs room. It is normally in a downstairs living space. So your temperature unit may be reading high..
 

So get them to do the settings and you can always use the dial to change things in exceptions, but that should be in exceptions and not to make it work. 

 

 

Understand this thermostat place is likely wrong. I asked it be in spare room, bc I'd no idea how to answer 'where would you like it?' I took a guess. So: this likely placed wrong, the position of noisy box unit (they shjould know makes some noise) shouldve been put waaay away from beds in my UT room, the lagging awol, the outside leak > low pressure issues, live wires left, holes not filled, carpets partially ruined... are all installers' perogative/ mistakes. But cannot contact them/ refusing contact. Ive bullet-pointed these in a very firm email, no reply.

 

Moving thermostat/ controller isn't difficult tho.. so if I have to do it so be it, tho 10m of cable needed, undoing the box thing to attatch, and mounting it far from idea sol I shouldn't be having to consider doing all this.

 

Trouble is the only places downstairs, are very cold rooms, so conversely I'll get it reading temperature low all the time.. which I think would equate to heat compressor likely being on continually, all day long.

 

--

 

If they rid the overnight noise today (job1, priority) & fit the compressor silencer gesture (job2)... then... I can start putting 'normal' settings in, maybe run it as your suggesting, be on board to entertain ideas/ optimal runnings/ go over replied suggestions. But you see how this dreadful intrusion has c*cked up everything so royally. Until its quiet overnight, I cant use it properly/ or at all tbh & has to go.. it is currently UFFP.

 

This time tmrw I'll know & its final final decision, keep or remove: IT'S ALL dependent on the appt. today by the ape & master.

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

If the workshop is so much warmer than the rest of the house, have you turned this radiator down a bit?

 

I'm unsure if I can, bit confused with PeterStarck's saying they're lockshield somethings, end of the line rad so will unbalance or something.

 

The white placcy caps dont exactly say to me 'yes you can turn up to 5 max, 3 mid, 1 low', with just a feint embossed +......- on the tops.

 

thanks dpm.

[dpmiller]

are the caps the same on both ends of the rad? The whole point of a lockshield is to protect it from fiddling, leaving only one valve for the customer to open/close/adjust. The valves come with both typed of caps, fixed and adjustable, and your plumber should've put a different one at each end. That he didn't, makes it seem like the system has never been balanced...

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I'm unsure if I can, bit confused with PeterStarck's saying they're lockshield somethings, end of the line rad so will unbalance or something.

This might explain it a bit better.

 

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/how-to-balance-radiators

 

[zoothorn]

18 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

This might explain it a bit better.

 

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/how-to-balance-radiators

 

 

Hi Peter- thats very useful info thanks. I think this is more to do with tweaking for optimal, which I'll get to very last thing, if it can be liveable with (noise issues fixed).

 

In the meantime, I see Ive got wheelhead valves 2 of each side of all rads. If I just turn my one 'too hot room' rad down say to 1/2 on one of these wheelhead valves, am I allowed to do this, and will it mean approx 1/2 heat output from it? (or should I turn both of its valves to 1/2?).

[Gone West]

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

In the meantime, I see Ive got wheelhead valves 2 of each side of all rads. If I just turn my one 'too hot room' rad down say to 1/2 on one of these wheelhead valves, am I allowed to do this, and will it mean approx 1/2 heat output from it? (or should I turn both of its valves to 1/2?).

The valves on each end of the radiator do different things. The end where the water flows into the radiator is the end that can be adjusted/turned off. The other end, where the water flows out, is the end which is adjusted to balance the system and once it is balanced that valve should not be touched again. If your system has not been balanced it's not surprising that some radiators could be cold and others hot. The inflow pipe end of the radiator should be hotter than the outflow as the heat in the water is lost to the air as it passes through the radiator.

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, dpmiller said:

are the caps the same on both ends of the rad? The whole point of a lockshield is to protect it from fiddling, leaving only one valve for the customer to open/close/adjust. The valves come with both typed of caps, fixed and adjustable, and your plumber should've put a different one at each end. That he didn't, makes it seem like the system has never been balanced...

 

Yes, the same, wheelhead valves each end of all rads. So not quite sure where, or if I have any lockshield ones. Will come back to this: someones gotta fix the leak/ pressure issue, tidy up holes & wires so I'll get them to do this (hopefully) if I can get this installer visit achieved.

 

Anyway now, 2x Vaillant chaps here, plus head manager(!) who apologised for all noise trouble, took my points on board he said (bboy pants on for recent calls, emails demanding they contact germany for definitive answer to noise > solution -before- visit today)... & they did contact germany, & found the (software) problem > ! > have 2 boards to fit as solution, & certain will solve it. Yet another visit to come.. to fit 2nd board!

 

But again, I'm grateful & give much credit to Vaillant chaps here & on phones, its a shame the hardware falls far short of their professionalism.

[zoothorn]

JesusHchrist. 5 hours here, 3 of them, compressor silencer fitted- has made the tiniest bit of difference imaginable, but, seems to have only just shifted the droning groan to different areas of the house. I can now hear it in the kitchen- I couldn't before.

 

Also what they came to do, primarily the pump noise/ overnight thing.. they put in one of two boards, which didn't work.. so removed it & put back old board. Will do both boards now next visit, maybe end of next week they said. Ive no confidence this issue will be fixed ever now. The hardware is infuriating & utter junk.

 

So now I'm back to sq1 & to soundproof the whole upstairs cupboard & onwards/ may as well rip out whole inside of this room & redo it. How on -earth- anyone else puts up with this damn system's noise within their house (if this fkn box thing has been put in it) is utterly beyond me. Obviously uk folks being usual reticent lot, just wont complain. Or they just are & Vaillant not letting on. My spare room's now definitely, finally unuseable as a bedroom.

[joe90]

Sorry to hear that, it has been a nightmare for you, I still say “it’s not fit fir purpose” others have said it’s undersized, let them fit the two new boards BUT unless it’s FULLY acceptable to you after that then demand it’s all ripped out. Contact the funding agent and give them a warts and all account of what you have had to put up with. There are many on here that could work out your heat load, what sized radiators and what boiler will give you what you require, chin up.

[zoothorn]

@joe90 appreciate that post joe. Ive only put up with it this long bc its a grant thing, no way on earth Id still be accepting visits to fix xyz if Id paid for it. I must be grateful for my workshop warm room, the rads which can (afaik) be used with somthing else (IF..) & the efforts by these chaps, plus advice here of course.

 

@PeterW I wrote down your settings 22* and 18* with times idea,  & showed them to the head UK engineer (one of the chaps apparantly) who  said perfectly good suggestions (maybe just drop overnight 10pm-6am to 15* perhaps) but whether a more efficient way to run it all 'dependent on my house heat loss'. So I get that.

 

Anyway another week to see if this is fit/ useable, before I can try some ideas to run it better. urgh. I'll get my replies down shorter too/ not stress-spiel as Im prone to. Cheers zooter schmooter.