Extension- Last Stuff.

[joe90]

10 minutes ago, Jilly said:

Your experience is putting me off getting the same as I do like simple technology! 

please don’t let it, others have said the only problems with ASHP systems are their being designed wrong or installed wrong, I installed my own, designed my own and it works very well (I don’t understand physics either ?). There are many here with an ASHP that are pleased with them. Fridge and freezers work on the same principle (but reversed) and they are simple.

[Pocster]

13 minutes ago, joe90 said:

please don’t let it, others have said the only problems with ASHP systems are their being designed wrong or installed wrong, I installed my own, designed my own and it works very well (I don’t understand physics either ?). There are many here with an ASHP that are pleased with them. Fridge and freezers work on the same principle (but reversed) and they are simple.

ASHP with ufh is ace ?

[SteamyTea]

49 minutes ago, Jilly said:

I might be being a bit thick here (physics isn't my strong point) but I'm given to understand that water ASHP do supply low temp water and you need giant radiators to compensate if you don't have under floor heating. Could this be partly what's going on?  Your experience is putting me off getting the same as I do like simple technology! 

Right and wrong.

Temperature is not energy.

As a simple explanation, for any given heat emitter area (radiator or floor), you can deliver more power (power is not energy) the greater the temperature differences.

So yes, you need a bigger area if the difference between the floor area and the room's air is great, or you need a higher temperature.

But then it also comes down to how long the power is delivered for.  This is the energy (energy does the work, which is heating the air in the room) and is why we use the unit kWh, it is just power multiplied by time.

So nothing wrong with a relatively low temperature, but it may need a larger emitter area and need to be on for longer.

 

[SteamyTea]

42 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Fridge and freezers work on the same principle (but reversed) and they are simple.

No, stop saying this, they work exactly the same, it is just where you measure the temperature.

[joe90]

14 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

No, stop saying this, they work exactly the same, it is just where you measure the temperature.

 

14 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Fridge and freezers work on the same principle (but reversed)

Reversed only in that fridge / freezers produce cold and waste heat, ASHP,s produce heat and waste cold!!!

Edited November 26, 2020 by joe90

[SteamyTea]

19 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Reversed only in that fridge / freezers produce cold and waste heat, ASHP,s produce heat and waste cold!!!

We don't describe air-conditioning as a 'reverse' heat pump.

 

There are basically two elements to any heat engine, the hot side and the cold side.

All the rest is plumbing.

[zoothorn]

15 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

I feel so much better having caught up with all the trials and tribulations.

Going to hang my washing out in the sun, do a bit of painting and then go out.

My life is good.

?? Bizarre.

[zoothorn]

14 hours ago, joe90 said:

please don’t let it, others have said the only problems with ASHP systems are their being designed wrong or installed wrong, I installed my own, designed my own and it works very well (I don’t understand physics either ?). There are many here with an ASHP that are pleased with them. Fridge and freezers work on the same principle (but reversed) and they are simple.

joe theres alot different between making your own, meaning you know exactly its workings, and meaning likely you wont have an absurdly complicated digital controller, and able to fix something if you made it, or at the least identify the problem.. than this terrible thing ive got that 5 engineers over 2 months havent the foggiest clue what its even doing let alone how to fix it.
 

Jilly please do. Never in my life have i been so sure of not recommending something as -this- ashp. It is abysmal, ridiculously overcomplicated, infuriating, and cant do the basic pg1 of getting a well insulate new room warm with a huge radiator in. Its been signed off time and time again, probably 6 times now as 'working correctly, all as it should be'. So its nothing to do with the installation, its just total and utter shite hardware. Be very wary.

[zoothorn]

Anyway, thank goodness for my £5 fan heater, plus a freebie leccy blanket a kind soul gave me.. putting on low overnight now so back better last night, but still feel the ache in my spine from 2 nights ago.
 

£5 fan heater more effective at getting me warm in 5 mins, than an 8k german ashp over a whole fkn month. Never known anything so pathetically ridiculous.

 

Question for joe/ those who know ashp's: I notice the big rad in this top bedroom, doesn't quite get as warm as other two in other 2 beds.. only a fraction less mind you. Now i dont need these 2 other bedroom rads on, so can i turn them off, (also the only other big looong rad downstairs is not needed really) and would  this maybe increace the  temp of remaining rads ? Ie does their energy get distributed to other rads?

 

thanks zh

 

 

[joe90]

7 hours ago, zoothorn said:

joe theres alot different between making your own, meaning you know exactly its workings, and meaning likely you wont have an absurdly complicated digital controller, and able to fix something if you made it, or at the least identify the problem.. than this terrible thing ive got that 5 engineers over 2 months havent the foggiest clue what its even doing let alone how to fix it.
 

Jilly please do. Never in my life have i been so sure of not recommending something as -this- ashp. It is abysmal, ridiculously overcomplicated, infuriating, and cant do the basic pg1 of getting a well insulate new room warm with a huge radiator in. Its been signed off time and time again, probably 6 times now as 'working correctly, all as it should be'. So its nothing to do with the installation, its just total and utter shite hardware. Be very wary.

As I said, the only bad ones are either designed badly or installed wrong YOURS IS BOTH, IMO.

 

I have no radiators,  I only have UFH downstairs (the preferred way to use an ASHP).

 

I admit my programmer is also complicated and took a while to sort out but now it is I never have to touch it, if it’s cold it heats the house, when the house is warmed it switches off (not that it’s come on yet this year!,!).

 

@Jilly make sure you read all reviews before deciding, not just one about a system that is wrongly designed and/or installed.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

7 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Question for joe/ those who know ashp's

A lot us on on here know, but that is because we research things and are willing to take, and act on, advice, rather than though up our hands and say 'it is not my fault'

7 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I notice the big rad in this top bedroom, doesn't quite get as warm as other two in other 2 beds.. only a fraction less mind you. Now i dont need these 2 other bedroom rads on, so can i turn them off, (also the only other big looong rad downstairs is not needed really) and would  this maybe increace the  temp of remaining rads ? Ie does their energy get distributed to other rads?

You will still have a house that is at the same mean temperature, just that some rooms will be colder and others warmer.

Now if your ASHP is too small, then it will always struggle to heat the place when it gets cold.

You also keep fixating on radiator temperature; temperature is not power or energy.

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

As I said, the only bad ones are either designed badly or installed wrong YOURS IS BOTH, IMO

 

 

Quite possibly both, but I can only vouch for the the 1st, designed (& therefore working) appalingly.

 

I understand the suggestion of thermometres in rooms, but can't understand an absolute fundamental before this: why if at 8am, it being on since 6.30am, am I feeling all the rads with only a semblence of warmth in? essentially all barely-on mostly cold rads: these just physically -cannot- -will not- -it is not possible to-- to get anything but the tiniest bit of heat into a room from, modern room or old > an even tinier bit of heat into me, from radiators in this state.

 

"Its all working as it should" another engineer said 2 days ago, 4 hours here (albeit adding he agreed something odd's happening overnight/ some additional mystery thing) but during the day, in its heating times, its established its 'working fine'.

 

Furthermore, I've witnessed the rads being capable of getting to a decent 'hottish' temp. So infuriatingly, they can do it, but just won't, when I need them to. Its 3* right now. 8am. Nearly december. When other than this would I need the rads to do get going already?? Why is some 'brain' part of this wretched thing telling the rads 'oh go super-low-heat-right-now & stay like so for 4 hours, that's correct'. Its like its in end of spring mode or something. Totally unfit for purpose. Just this alone. Totally.

 

Thinking on the engineering avenue, camera tech background so have -some- logic to use, I can only think its the ----sensor--- sending incorrect transmitter-signals (the overnight mystery 'on.off.on.off' debacle fits this theory imo) to whatever receiver. Or the receiver determining whats being transmitted wrongly. But I shouldn't have to consider these zoot thought experiments. I should just get up at 8am, with 3 rads on nicely warm. That's all I need from this. Whether they then are highly effective, or far less so, by way of the nature/ build aspects of the room.. is secondary & irrelevant with regard to the fundamental prior need of simply getting a damn metal water filled thing HOT enough 1st. Irrelevant for now. Irrelevant for this part of proceeedings. Get the rads going 1st >>>> then get thermometres in >>>> absolutely agree (but pointless beforehand/ at thus juncture it seems to me).

 

 

[joe90]

12 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

but can't understand

you don’t need to, it does not work properly, end of, stop trying to understand and complain through trading standards 

 

12 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Its all working as it should" another engineer said 2 days ago

on no it’s fecking not, it’s a heating system and your cold!, what’s not to understand?

 

12 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Get the rads going 1st >>>> then get thermometres in >>>> absolutely agree (but pointless beforehand/ at thus juncture it seems to me).

wrong on every level, it’s cold NOW, get proof (thermometers).

Edited November 27, 2020 by joe90

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, joe90 said:

you don’t need to, it does not work properly, end of, stop trying to understand and complain through trading standards 

 

on no it’s fecking not, it’s a heating system and your cold!, what’s not to understand?

 

wrong on every level, it’s cold NOW, get proof (thermometers).

 

Ok joe thanks, reassuring reply. Surely the proof I can give, at this point without thermometres yet, is the rads are so tepid-warm as to be hopelessly effective at heating -any- room. So lets agree to disagree on this, & I'll look into thermo's to buy.

 

I'm onto vaillant right now, yet again, listening to music etc waiting to speak to the renewables/ tech chaps. I'm asking about this rad temp thing only (cant cope askin g about other leak/ pressure/ noise issues this wek).

 

Is there anything you'd suggest I ask whilst here? takes a feck of a long time to get thru.

[PeterW]

17 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Irrelevant for this part of proceeedings. Get the rads going 1st >>>> then get thermometres in >>>> absolutely agree (but pointless beforehand/ at thus juncture it seems to me).

No, not irrelevant. If the temperature in the rooms measured is less than the set temperature on the controller then there is a fault with the system, and that needs to be resolved ASAP..!!! 
 

Do that, get the factual data and then move forward ..!!!!

[PeterW]

7 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

the proof I can give, at this point without thermometres yet, is the rads are so tepid-warm as to be hopelessly effective at heating -any- room

That isn’t proof. Your body temperature is 39°C, the air temperature at 18°C feels “cool” but a radiator at 25°C will also feel “tepid”. In reality, pure thermodynamics means the radiator is warming the air around it, and given enough time and assuming the heat loss from the room is less than the heat input from the radiator, the room will reach equilibrium with the radiator. 
 

To give you “proof” it isn’t working, you need to get some data - which is the thermometers. 

[jfb]

What temperature is the the water that is called for the radiators set to?

 

Have you bought a cheap thermometer yet?

[Onoff]

Was your old system cleaned and power flushed? Just done mine and it's made a world of difference to the radiator temperatures.

[Gone West]

41 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I'll look into thermo's to buy

If this is of any help we have one of these in several of our rooms.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383680821544

 

[PeterW]

12 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Was your old system cleaned and power flushed? Just done mine and it's made a world of difference to the radiator temperatures.

There was no old system ....

[Onoff]

3 minutes ago, PeterW said:

There was no old system ....

 

Oh! I thought he had an existing boiler and rads and that they took the boiler out, installed the ASHP and added some extra rads?

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Onoff

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

 

Oh! I thought he had an existing boiler and rads and that they took the boiler out, installed the ASHP and added some extra rads?

 

 

No just an immersion tank, feeding hw. All rads new. You see alot of stuff foc. 
 

If this was removed, if it cant be sorted/ noisewise itll have to be if remains as is/ would the rads all be removed too?

 

My q is can these rads, plus mostly 22 mm pipes, be used with an alternate source? 2 loooong rads, 6 remaining being normal size afaict.

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, PeterStarck said:

If this is of any help we have one of these in several of our rooms.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383680821544

 

Very helpful Peter, will buy today. I hate to think what my bathroom will read.

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, jfb said:

What temperature is the the water that is called for the radiators set to?

 

Have you bought a cheap thermometer yet?

 

Good q. Was set to 45*, set down i think possibly by engineer to try tamp down compressor noise about 4 visits ago, so just upped to 55* as suggested by phone renewables dept. Very very good these chaps have been i must add. Cant hear much difference, rads low temp now priority over this noise anyway.
 

Also told to up the heat upped from 0.8 to 1.2.. wtf this is i cant cope thinking of.

 

Buying thermometre today.

[Onoff]

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Very helpful Peter, will buy today. I hate to think what my bathroom will read.

 

If you can beat 11degC then you win.