Extension- Last Stuff.

[PeterW]

5 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

It's not even that - it's the difference between the *average* radiator temperature (thus (flow-return)/2) and room temperature which therefore drops the actual output even further. It doesn't change the rest of your point though so don't anyone let my pedantry get in the way! 

You are correct - it should say average flow temperature (now corrected..!) I was more engrossed in hunting through my standard variation tables ..! 

[TonyT]

On 27/11/2020 at 11:14, zoothorn said:

 

Good q. Was set to 45*, set down i think possibly by engineer to try tamp down compressor noise about 4 visits ago, so just upped to 55* as suggested by phone renewables dept. Very very good these chaps have been i must add. Cant hear much difference, rads low temp now priority over this noise anyway.
 

Also told to up the heat upped from 0.8 to 1.2.. wtf this is i cant cope thinking of.

 

Buying thermometre today.

 

 

hopefully as you bought a means of measuring temperature you can provide the data to help us help you.

instead of not answering the questions that people have been posting for 20 odd pages, why dont you post the info on the radiator dimensions, types of radiator, room size, glazing size, type of construction etc, make model of ASHP etc etc. 

 

 

[Gone West]

10 hours ago, zoothorn said:

No, Im defo saying the room's too cold for the rad! they physically cannot be bigger in: kitchen, bathroom, bedroom, spare bedroom, both the main room's rads cannot be any bigger too. New bedroom I think has the biggest rad in wales in tbh.

The panel may be the largest you can fit in the room but you can buy triple or even quadruple panel radiators so I would be surprised if they were the largest heat output radiators around.

[TonyT]

https://www.stelrad.com/radiators/standard-steel-radiators/

 

as a rough guide to off the shelf radiators.

[joe90]

39 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

The panel may be the largest you can fit in the room but you can buy triple or even quadruple panel radiators so I would be surprised if they were the largest heat output radiators around.

so (at the risk of repeating myself) the system was not designed properly.

[zoothorn]

On 04/12/2020 at 08:14, dpmiller said:

If the workshop is so much warmer than the rest of the house, have you turned this radiator down a bit?

 

Hi Dpm. No because its the only room that's warm.

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, TonyT said:

 

 

hopefully as you bought a means of measuring temperature you can provide the data to help us help you.

instead of not answering the questions that people have been posting for 20 odd pages, why dont you post the info on the radiator dimensions, types of radiator, room size, glazing size, type of construction etc, make model of ASHP etc etc. 

 

 

 

I don't have a means of measuring the water temp within the rads. Im asked for the rad temps, I cannot answer/ I can only say what temp I have put into the system, its flow temp 55*. Answering each rad temp, each room dims, glazing size, type of construction, make & model of ASHP.. that's a huge ammount of info that'll take me a day. And I'm not sure for what purpose this info could be if:

 

What I need to establish is only 3 things:

 

1) overnight noise (Vaillant's perogative to fix).

2) why all rads 'spring' into life at 6.50am, the next day 7.55am (Vaillant's perogative IF it is an issue: outside sensor- do you agree this seems the most plausible thing? or another software issue maybe? 3 software issues so far.. so this is also plausible surely).

 

So if these are mfr issues (1 certainly is, 2 seems highly plausible it is) then putting these two issues aside. Leaving only:

 

3) why the new top room, with a rad twice size of new room's below, isn't nearly as warm. The only main Q.

 

This cannot have anything to do with *a rad imbalance if all perform simultaneously re. heat, & come on & go off simultaneously (for all intents & purposes then proof they're sufficiently balanced). And it cannot have anything to do with **the rad being undersized if its -over- 2x size of rad in room below which is heating this room very well, with both rooms having similar size & build.

 

But nobody seems to agree on these * & ** (to me clear as day) findings.

 

 

 

 

[PeterW]

20 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

This cannot have anything to do with *a rad imbalance if all perform simultaneously re. heat, & come on & go off simultaneously (for all intents & purposes then proof they're sufficiently balanced). And it cannot have anything to do with **the rad being undersized if its -over- 2x size of rad in room below which is heating this room very well, with both rooms having similar size & build.

Send me your address. 
 

When lockdown eases I will at my cost come down and measure the whole lot and do a full rad sizing and heat loss calculation and prove this lot is both undersized and isn’t balanced. It will also prove the point @joe90 has repeatedly made :

 

The system is not designed or installed correctly and is undersized for the heat requirements of the building, and it is not fit for purpose. 

[TonyT]

Good Luck Mate,  You don’t want people to help  as you aren’t willing to help measure a radiator, a room, a window ,  provide a few sketches yet will complain for numerous pages about being cold so I’m not investing any more time.

 

 

[Pocster]

59 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Send me your address. 
 

When lockdown eases I will at my cost come down and measure the whole lot and do a full rad sizing and heat loss calculation and prove this lot is both undersized and isn’t balanced. It will also prove the point @joe90 has repeatedly made :

 

The system is not designed or installed correctly and is undersized for the heat requirements of the building, and it is not fit for purpose. 

Wow ! What a kind offer !

Whilst you’re out @PeterW do you want to come and finish my job ? ?

Edited January 14, 2021 by pocster

[zoothorn]

18 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Send me your address. 
 

When lockdown eases I will at my cost come down and measure the whole lot and do a full rad sizing and heat loss calculation and prove this lot is both undersized and isn’t balanced. It will also prove the point @joe90 has repeatedly made :

 

The system is not designed or installed correctly and is undersized for the heat requirements of the building, and it is not fit for purpose. 

Peter that's hugely kind of you, i wouldn't want you to drive to west wales tho and back. If i can measure things here i will.

 

I fully agree its not designed correctly: its hopelessly complicated, 7 month ongoing noise prob, software issues, error codes, parts replaced so 8 x mfr visits, & yet still an issue remaining.. if not two. Absolutely agree. And agree its not fot fir purpiose solely on it coming active overnight on & off continually over even one night. If it was determined, within the installer instructions, to place the indoor unit not inside at all, but outside along with the fan unit.. then & only then could it be fot fir pirpis, for even an average house. No way as it is.

 

I cannot agree tho its not installed correctly (nothing suggests so, not now the leak finally fixed, the only thing Vaillant themselves noted incorrectly installed).

I cannot agree the rad in the workshop isn't correctly sized if the room is warm, and so:

I cannot agree that the room's rad above over 2x its size, is undersized as is suggested.

I cannot agree its imbalanced if all rads come on simultaneously, and just from feeling them, all seem fine/ equally as hot.

 

I know you have huge more knowledge and experience, but with respect we must agree to disagree on these 4 points.

 

Can i use the thermometre directly on the rad? Id need to tape it on side or something. Or am i being asked to go into system & check current flow temp at certain times? I think i remember how now, a screen on the dreaded indoor box unit you can go into.. tho more for installers than customers afaict.

thanks alot, zh

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

28 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Good Luck Mate,  You don’t want people to help  as you aren’t willing to help measure a radiator, a room, a window ,  provide a few sketches yet will complain for numerous pages about being cold so I’m not investing any more time.

 

 

I would if I could see the logic of doing so. The suggestion is that the surveyor didn't do his job right, & that the rads are inblanced; but I can only see proof that he did the job right, and the rads are balanced (& its just this house aspects undermining the CH).

 

If I could see any evidence of what is being suggested, Id measure xyz no problem. The thing is noone understands how cold this house is, how a wet small valley 8m from sea out here can trap cold like Ive never known even in NZ, & because being ex builders and vg amateur builders.. the 1st thing you'd not have or put up with, is insufficient insulation. That's all that's wrong here. Why tho this can be said in my new top room, with vg results yds below.. is the only viable question, to me.

 

 

[joe90]

28 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I would if I could see the logic of doing so

Yes you don’t see the logic but you keep doubting people here that know far more than you.

30 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

the 1st thing you'd not have or put up with, is insufficient insulation. That's all that's wrong

That should have been part of the designers calculations hence the reason I say, oh never mind, I’m not going to say it again .

 

33 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

& that the rads are inblanced;

YES

32 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

The suggestion is that the surveyor didn't do his job right,

YES!!!

 

33 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

but I can only see proof that he did the job right

Then why do you keep asking the same questions over and over without listening to the replies.       

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

Yes you don’t see the logic but you keep doubting people here that know far more than you.

That should have been part of the designers calculations hence the reason I say, oh never mind, I’m not going to say it again .

 

YES

YES!!!

 

Then why do you keep asking the same questions over and over without listening to the replies.       

Joe, I listen & read every reply but I am not oblidged to agree with everything that's said though (noone is who creates a thread: the replies are opinions, to which the OP has to decide between, upon, to take up one maybe not another, to discuss, many things) not just blindly agreeing with everything. 
 

It is absolutely impossible for me to agree if..

 

you say the rads are imbalanced, after my findings/ when I say on here I find all rads to be similar, which cannot suggest any possible thing other than that they are adequately balanced. But you just outright refute this, saying the very opposite.

 

Wtf??
 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by zoothorn

[joe90]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I know you have huge more knowledge and experience, but with respect we must agree to disagree @PeterW

no more comments from me then  ?

Edited January 14, 2021 by joe90

[zoothorn]

@joe90 the only thing that might be reason for not understanding you (& if others agreeing with you, I have to try & understand how you can come to this collective pov) is if the word "balanced" is different to you and me here.

 

To me, 8x balanced rads mean all equal in temp & equal in when they come on.. regardless of two factors: their size, & the room they're in.

 

If though in order to achieve balance in my house here with such differing room characteristics, the rads need to be "tuned" to their specific rooms in order to achieve a balance in the final room temp one to the next.. then I can understand you saying my rads are unbalanced.

 

Is this what you mean? that my view of 'balanced rads' might have been far too limited-?

[joe90]

?

[Pocster]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

?

50 quid says @joe90 replies at some point ?

[joe90]

1 minute ago, pocster said:

50 quid says @joe90 replies at some point ?

You will have to pay me £50 ?

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, pocster said:

50 quid says @joe90 replies at some point ?

 

Like a train wreck you can't take your eyes off! ?

[Pocster]

Christ that didn’t take long did it 

[Onoff]

@zoothorn could you in some way harness the heat from the bridges you keep burning? ?

[PeterW]

3 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

To me, 8x balanced rads mean all equal in temp & equal in when they come on.. regardless of two factors: their size, & the room they're in.

 

If though in order to achieve balance in my house here with such differing room characteristics, the rads need to be "tuned" to their specific rooms in order to achieve a balance in the final room temp one to the next.. then I can understand you saying my rads are unbalanced.

 

Is this what you mean? that my view of 'balanced rads' might have been far too limited-?

@zoothorn I said yesterday you didn’t understand rad balancing, and you ignored it. 

 

 

I also went through and explained how we size radiators using BS EN442 and how flow temperature affects heat output, yet apparently because one room gets warm (your workshop)

I was wrong. 
 

I’ve offered to professionally come and review the house, install and design to see how it is all working and identify any issues, you’ve declined and then gone on to say that you disagree with me even though I have more experience of this. 
 

It feels remarkably like you do not want any help with this, but are happier to have something to complain about, rather than take the assistance from many members of this forum to resolve it. 
 

I wish you luck resolving this, I have no further comment or input to make on this. 

[joe90]

1 minute ago, pocster said:

Christ that didn’t take long did it 

I was replying to you, not zoot! Having my afternoon coffee and scanning various projects that are moving forward.

Edited January 14, 2021 by joe90

[Gone West]

Oh no he won't.