Ann Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Hi, I'm not sure what way to go with this ... whether to tile the floor before or after the kitchen units and island are installed. I'm planning to lay the same tile in the hallway, kitchen and family room as it's open plan. On a liquid screed floor with UFH. I'd welcome any advice on the pros and cons of tiling before and after the kitchen units. To confuse me even more, the carpenter has advised that the oak staircase should be fitted last (to avoid damage), after the floor has been tiled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC45 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 I tile the lot 1st: 1. If you ever change the units / design there are no issues with the floor. 2. Fitting the plinth will require it to be cut because the unit legs will be below the finished floor height - you could jack these up further if you wanted to I guess. 3. Your carpenter is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 +1 to tile the lot first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Always before Dont forget to fire your UFH up before it’s tiled and use matting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, nod said: and use matting most of my downstairs is tiled and I did not use matting ??? (and I have UFH) ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, joe90 said: most of my downstairs is tiled and I did not use matting ??? (and I have UFH) ? What do I know I’ve only been running a tiling business for 30 years ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 6 minutes ago, joe90 said: most of my downstairs is tiled and I did not use matting ??? (and I have UFH) ? Been wondering about this myself, it seems counter-intuitive to me to have a thin layer flexibly isolated from the base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 10 minutes ago, dpmiller said: Been wondering about this myself, it seems counter-intuitive to me to have a thin layer flexibly isolated from the base. Isn’t that the whole idea, to isolate the tiles from the base, if your screed grows and shrinks with the underfloor heating but your tiles don’t grow to the same amount then they need de-coupling from each other. @nod what is the standard spec now in commercial builds, matting or no matting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 10 minutes ago, dpmiller said: Been wondering about this myself, it seems counter-intuitive to me to have a thin layer flexibly isolated from the base. I’ve tile onto screed that not properly dried UFH with mat and got away with it We had two jobs where the tiles lifted without matting onto UFH Both cost over 10 k to put right As a contractor it’s not worth the risk It’s a big job to put right once all the kitchen and furniture is in The matting is belts and braces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 6 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said: Isn’t that the whole idea, to isolate the tiles from the base, if your screed grows and shrinks with the underfloor heating but your tiles don’t grow to the same amount then they need de-coupling from each other. @nod what is the standard spec now in commercial builds, matting or no matting. Your spot on Russ Always matting where there is any likely to be any kind of movement It’s already in the spec before we quote Make no mistake If a tiled floor lifts the whole lot has to come up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 56 minutes ago, nod said: What do I know I’ve only been running a tiling business for 30 years ? sorry mate, I am not a tiler and only did what was recommended here by another “professional”, just relating what I did. So, can you explain how to use matting, is it stuck to the floor?, how does it work? I would love to understand how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, joe90 said: sorry mate, I am not a tiler and only did what was recommended here by another “professional”, just relating what I did. So, can you explain how to use matting, is it stuck to the floor?, how does it work? I would love to understand how it works. I used the schluter matting which has a fleece backing. You put down a sloppy tile adhesive mix on a 4mm bed and lay matting down onto this. The top is like Lego so when you spread tile adhesive it is squashed down and creates a surface for the adhesive to bind to. The overall effect is if there is any movement underneath the matting it does not transfer through to the tiles. My neighbour has just used the latest matting that is not even glued down, it just floats made by Bal. The beauty of this is if you need to repair a tile or even tile over say some lovely Victorian hallway you can do without damaging the tiles/surface underneath or just cut the damaged tile out and replace. This product is dearer than my Schluter product but a lot quicker and you do not need to buy adhesive to fix it. YouTube Is good for a visual representation here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 I didn't use any matting on mine either. Didn't know there was such a product. Just used a flexible adhesive and coming up on 6 years its crack free. I had my floor in for 10 weeks with the ufh temp increased by 1 degree each day till it got to a flow temp of 35 degrees. Would there be less movement in a sand cement screed compared to a liquid screed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperJohnG Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 This is quite interesting as I'm going to do LVT on my whole ground floor. Which will be applied directly onto the insulated concrete foundation which has UFH (of course). I wonder the difference with this.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 @SuperJohnG The main Risk with a ceramic tile floor over UFH is cracking of the tiles. Obviously with LVT this is less of an issue (although It can still happen in larger commercial sites with big expanses of concrete floor where the floor cracks at day-joints). Compared to ceramic tiles however, vinyl and wood flooring is much more vulnerable to damage from concrete or screed that has not been dried out properly before the flooring goes down. I’ve seen whole vinyl floors fail on commercial projects due to the water-based adhesive emulsifying due to water migrating from the screed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 9 hours ago, Pete said: I used the schluter matting which has a fleece backing. You put down a sloppy tile adhesive mix on a 4mm bed and lay matting down onto this. The top is like Lego so when you spread tile adhesive it is squashed down and creates a surface for the adhesive to bind to. The overall effect is if there is any movement underneath the matting it does not transfer through to the tiles. My neighbour has just used the latest matting that is not even glued down, it just floats made by Bal. The beauty of this is if you need to repair a tile or even tile over say some lovely Victorian hallway you can do without damaging the tiles/surface underneath or just cut the damaged tile out and replace. This product is dearer than my Schluter product but a lot quicker and you do not need to buy adhesive to fix it. YouTube Is good for a visual representation here If the mat floats won't the tiles sound hollow then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 He is happy with the product but I must admit it did cross my mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 9 hours ago, Declan52 said: I didn't use any matting on mine either. Didn't know there was such a product. Just used a flexible adhesive and coming up on 6 years its crack free. I had my floor in for 10 weeks with the ufh temp increased by 1 degree each day till it got to a flow temp of 35 degrees. Would there be less movement in a sand cement screed compared to a liquid screed. I wondered about flexible adhesive, would that not do the job...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 The whole of my ground floor is tiled with porcelain tiles straight onto the concrete slab using BAL flexible adhesive and expansion strips in the doorways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Posted July 15, 2020 Author Share Posted July 15, 2020 It seems that the way to go is to tile first and then install the kitchen. Thanks for the advice. Interesting to read the posts about the decoupling membrane. I have two quotes for the tiling using flexible adhesive and grout. Only one of the quotes includes an option for Schluter Ditra matting, which adds 50% to the cost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) @Ann I’m an architect with 35 years experience. When it came to building our own house which had approx 65sq.m of ceramic floor tiles with UFH I specified the Schluter Ditra matting mentioned by @nod @Russell griffiths and @Pete We always specify it on our commercial projects and in my opinion it’s not worth the risk of not using it. Edited July 15, 2020 by Ian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 23 minutes ago, Ann said: It seems that the way to go is to tile first and then install the kitchen. Thanks for the advice. Interesting to read the posts about the decoupling membrane. I have two quotes for the tiling using flexible adhesive and grout. Only one of the quotes includes an option for Schluter Ditra matting, which adds 50% to the cost! It is very easy to do yourself but the problem is will the tiler accept your workmanship and secondly if there is a problem then you cab bet it would be your fault for not putting the mat down correctly. You just mix tile adhesive a bit runny, like a slurry and lay the mat out and press it down into the slurry. The tile adhesive is not doing anything other than adhering the mat to the slab/screed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 15 minutes ago, Ian said: @Ann I’m an architect with 35 years experience. When it came to building our own house which had approx 65sq.m of ceramic floor tiles with UFH I specified the Schluter Ditra matting mentioned by @nod @Russell griffiths and @Pete We always specify it on our commercial projects and in my opinion it’s not worth the risk of not using it. Exactly it really isn’t worth the risk Two Christmases ago we tiled a 200 m2 floor for a Barrister On a screed that had been down a matter of weeks With a bio boiler that was commissioned the day we finished Tiling the floor I pointed out that he would be mad to take a chance on a green screed He just said they needed to be in for. Christmas and would take full responsibly We used Ditra and got away with it As above All commercial have matting on most floors regardless of UFH It really is marvelous stuff cost £4m2 Ditra Adhesive (flex) £1m2 Labour £3.50 m2 My wife laid the 80 m2 in the kitchen area while I was Fitting one of the bathrooms Rollered to an inch of its life 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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