Living offgrid and isolated ?

[Waterworks]

You might think I'm nuts but I want to live on my own in a " hut "in the woods, all I want is a water source, some solar pv, a compost toilet system, an outdoor shower and a wood burning stove, I want total peace and quiet with no neighbours. I already live on a boat but I'm dealing with multiple restrictions , licences, permits, noise and PITA neighbours , so I'm ready to take the step to real isolation.

 

However I can't find any legal way to do it, even if I buy woodland I can't live there and even wrecked abandoned houses in far rural locations are way above my budget. It looks like its not possible for me to legally live like this in the UK, which seems daft to me because I certainly wouldn't be bothering anyone else and in fact using less rescouces than most. 

 

My best plan so far is to buy some isolated woodland and live in a shepherds hut and see what happens. Living in fear of being found out isn't ideal. 

 

 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Sadly I think that what you've worked out is pretty true, at least in England.  Things can be a bit easier elsewhere, though, for example Wales has allowed some sustainable development like this in the countryside.  Have you had a look at this group, for example?: https://lammas.org.uk/en/welcome-to-lammas/

 

The Lammas group have done pretty well, and been encouraged by the local policy that applies there.

[ProDave]

What is your budget and do you mind where in the UK you live?

 

Up here in the highlands there are some really truly isolated houses and we have one of the lowest house prices of the UK.

[dnb]

You are far from nuts. One of my friends is looking to doing much the same thing.

[SteamyTea]

10 hours ago, Waterworks said:

It looks like its not possible for me to legally live like this in the UK, which seems daft to me because I certainly wouldn't be bothering anyone else and in fact using less rescouces than most. 

It is not you, as an individual, that they are concerned about, it is the possibility that several thousand people, who all have the same idea, do the same.

The very thing you are after is only there because of our restrictive planning system.

So it looks like you need to do it under the radar.

Get a bit of woodland that has a decent access to a road (one thing that you need anyway), fence the area off so that it is obvious that it is private land, get a borehole drilled for your water.  Then do nothing for 2 years.

Then put a small, but old looking, shed, somewhere visible.  Leave for a year.

Then take it down, for another year.

Then put up a slightly better one.

This will, hopefully, attract attention.

But why the authorities are looking at the shed, they may not notice the small cabin that you have hidden somewhere else.

 

Or buy a small farm, rent out the house and most of the land, and live in a small corner of it.

 

Or move to a country that allows this sort of thing.

[Ferdinand]

Slightly offtopic.

 

How do they deal with this in similar European - say the Netherlands?

 

What about similar but dissimilar countries, such as France?

 

F

[Jilly]

Look at Beehive Farm. Two vets have done the One Planet thing in Wales (near to Lammas). They will give you a virtual tour for a £5-10 to show how they live totally off grid. Be careful about living without any creature comforts, I got pneumonia (pre Covid 19!) by roughing it too much on a house renovation. One benefit of a boat is that you can move on.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Jilly

[ToughButterCup]

24 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

...

What about similar but dissimilar countries, such as France?

My son used to work as a tree planter in Canada.  Earned enough in a few months to last the year.

Some of his older more experienced mates had, after a few years of intense hard work earned enough to be able to retire. 

 

It's not unknown for ex tree planters to hitch a heli ride out into the Bush, pick a spot, fell some trees,  build a log cabin and live there unmolested for as long as they were well enough to survive. 

 

The issue here is  lack of space. In Canada you can actually disappear into the wilderness. 

 

 It's all fun and games until the myocardial infarction or dental abscess.  Hence its common to find such off gridsters tending a large weed farm.

Bear tastes like wild boar I hear.

[Onoff]

Doesn't the "hutting" movement in Scotland make this sort of thing easier?

 

Other than that I'd buy a sloping site and build underground / into the hillside. Get a South facing slope. Dig it by hand over time. Cheaper than the gym.

 

Dig a few extra holes for nosey parkers...

[Ferdinand]

That rather laissez faire attitude matches my impression of France.

 

My friend who lived there remarked that the normal practice in rural France if the house is too big is simply to close off the top floor and live downstairs, rather than moving to somewhere smaller. There are vestiges of the practice here (Tony Benn in his house near Holland Park comes to mind, or farmers, or country piles). 

 

Also, the UK has for years had I think the smallest number number of empty houses anywhere in Western Europe, and taxes are now set up to maintain that. One reason why Mutti could invite a million immigrants to Germany in 2015 was because they had 4 or 5 times as many long term "empties" as the UK. There's an infographic somewhere from 2014.

 

I think the concept of "Bush" does not really exist in the UK any more. Needs quite serious money to pretend that it does.

 

We had had a couple of interesting people here recently - the Home Farm self-sufficiency people, and the people with the Holiday Accommodation Treehouse. Both are relatively isolated at least on the outskirts of town or in the country, but to do that you need the equivalent of the proceeds of selling a decent sized house in the South East - £250-750k depending. Parts of Scotland are an exception, probably.

 

Or you can find a wreck and self-restore. Still not cheap.

 

Ferdinand

Edited April 25, 2020 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

Another thought.

 

In the Tyne Valley west of Newcastle, (we have relatives there so know it quite well) there are a number of settlements of "huts" in the woods.  They were built originally as weekend retreats for the heavy industry workers in the city.

 

Their planning status is strange.  You are allowed to live in them and maintain them, but not to demolish and completely rebuild them.  Access to most of them is only on foot via public footpaths, though a few of them that are close to a road have been "maintained" in a creative way that almost equates to rebuilding.

 

I don't know if they ever come up for sale.  It might not suit you as they tend to be in small groups of huts more of a community than complete isolation.

[Onoff]

15 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

I think the concept of "Bush" does not really exist in the UK any more.

 

Does in our house...?

[ProDave]

This is the sort of thing that is available up here, seculded but not totally isolated.  This one needs a lot of work though https://www.hspc.co.uk/Detached-Cottage-For-Sale-Rowan-Cottage-Strathnacro-Glenurquhart-IV63-6TH

[SteamyTea]

 

24 minutes ago, Onoff said:

40 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

I think the concept of "Bush" does not really exist in the UK any more.

 

Does in our house

Same number of letters, and one is in the right place.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

This is the sort of thing that is available up here, seculded but not totally isolated.  This one needs a lot of work though https://www.hspc.co.uk/Detached-Cottage-For-Sale-Rowan-Cottage-Strathnacro-Glenurquhart-IV63-6TH

But still over £100,000

 

Could have my place for less, but anything but isolated and quiet.

[Crofter]

A family near me are doing this- bought a derelict house (not much change from £100k mind you) and are living in it off-grid. PV, big log pile, veg garden. When the weather's like this it looks idyllic, but I felt for them over the winter. They're sticking it out though, must be hardy.

[PeterW]

Looking in the wrong country ...

 

https://www.idealista.it/immobile/14974345/

 

Change of £20k for 20,000sqm

[ToughButterCup]

So, you live in a hut way out in the back end of nowhere, all of grid.

You get bitten by some little criter - and get cellulitis, followed by the inevitable fever, start feeling lethargic . By good fortune, you've got some antibiotic. But that runs out..... 

 

Takes guts to die like that.

[Cpd]

I brought a wreck of a place seven years ago in an isolated location for £110 k, it’s got 5 acres and is absolutely beautiful with the ocean just a few hundred feet away and surrounded by remote hill farm country. Yes it’s registered, on grid  and I pay my taxes but it’s  as close to living of the grid as I want at this time. A friend rents a caravan of me on site and gets all the benefits of living here without ownership or hassle and I make £75 a week which covers his electric hook up. Plenty of officials are aware of the set up and don’t give it a second look as it’s convenient for him as there are no other accommodations available locally and he WORKS  locally. My place  is very clean and tidy and his caravan fits in without being obvious that its not moved in a few years and in reality you hardly notice the chap as he keeps himself well contained. I know of many other examples of this happening throughout Scotland and done in a low key manner where it doesn’t have any negative effect on others and is visually VERY low key seems to be tolerated quite well. Should he get sick and need help he is not stuck out in the middle of nowhere, should the local official stance change then its zero issue for him or me as he can just move into the house for a few weeks and then....... but it’s just not a problem as everyone is aware if the situation and nobody cares. Anyway it’s just an example of how to live very cheaply without going down the road of building an illegal cabin in some remote woods that you may well get evicted from ! Often it’s better to do these things in plain sight and be totally honest with the neighbours about what you want to do because at the end of the day if it’s going to get reported it’s going to be by someone who is upset by what your doing, and to be upset they need (generally) to be effected by it. If I was you I would build an amazing tiny home and find a lovely remote spot that you can park up at with the the blessing of the land owner and enjoy your days..... if you were to find the right place you could come in as a volunteer in some form of countryside conservation and then you would be seen as an asset rather than a squatter, again this would give you meaning on a day to day level and help to bolster local support and hopefully create further tolerance for your non standard arrangement.  It’s definitely possible. I could go on but will leave it at this for now..... if I was going to go fully of grid I know where I would go...... 

[SteamyTea]

Could always get the boat onto the Bude Canal, there are no other narrow boats on it.

[Jeremy Harris]

When I was still a parish councillor we had an application for a lawful development certificate under Section 191 of the T&CP Act.  Perhaps worth noting that there isn't a requirement to consult on such an application, so in this case it was done pretty much to see if the PC had any local knowledge, I suspect.  I drove up to see the place, and it was a mobile home, located off a bridleway, that had been sat on the site of some old farm buildings.  Conifers had been planted around three sides of it, making it impossible to see easily.  The applicant provided evidence that a dwelling had been on the same site for ~15 years or so, IIRC.  My personal view was that the dwelling had almost certainly been deliberately hidden from view, initially by the surrounding old sheds, then by the planted conifers after the sheds had been taken away.  Hard to prove, though, and the planning officer gave the applicant the benefit of the doubt.

 

This was only about a year ago, so it shows that, with a bit of cunning, and a fair amount of good fortune, it is possible to get away with "building in the woods".  Hellishly risky, though, and it needs the cooperation of the surrounding landowners.  In the case above, the chap living in the mobile home had originally been employed by the landowner, then he bought the site where his mobile home was from him, but didn't apply for utility connections in his own name, he piggy backed on the landowners connections, by private agreement.  It seems to have been a pretty clever way around getting caught, although I think it was pure good fortune that he didn't get clobbered by the "deliberate hiding an unlawful development" rule.

[Big Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Harris said:

When I was still a parish councillor we had an application for a lawful development certificate under Section 191 of the T&CP Act.  Perhaps worth noting that there isn't a requirement to consult on such an application, so in this case it was done pretty much to see if the PC had any local knowledge, I suspect.  I drove up to see the place, and it was a mobile home, located off a bridleway, that had been sat on the site of some old farm buildings.  Conifers had been planted around three sides of it, making it impossible to see easily.  The applicant provided evidence that a dwelling had been on the same site for ~15 years or so, IIRC.  My personal view was that the dwelling had almost certainly been deliberately hidden from view, initially by the surrounding old sheds, then by the planted conifers after the sheds had been taken away.  Hard to prove, though, and the planning officer gave the applicant the benefit of the doubt.

 

This was only about a year ago, so it shows that, with a bit of cunning, and a fair amount of good fortune, it is possible to get away with "building in the woods".  Hellishly risky, though, and it needs the cooperation of the surrounding landowners.  In the case above, the chap living in the mobile home had originally been employed by the landowner, then he bought the site where his mobile home was from him, but didn't apply for utility connections in his own name, he piggy backed on the landowners connections, by private agreement.  It seems to have been a pretty clever way around getting caught, although I think it was pure good fortune that he didn't get clobbered by the "deliberate hiding an unlawful development" rule.

Good luck to him. To many busy body Parish Council knobs, that object to everything, just for the sake of it, and the power trip.

[Jeremy Harris]

5 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

Good luck to him. To many busy body Parish Council knobs, that object to everything, just for the sake of it, and the power trip.

 

That pretty much sums up the unofficial (pre-meeting) debate, most were in favour of just letting it go, but one was being officious and trying to make a fuss.  TBH, I could see why when I went up there, as it was pretty clear that the original mobile home had been very carefully hidden, surrounded by old sheds that had only recently been knocked down.  This was also clear on Google Earth, with older imagery showing that the place had been surrounded by timber sheds until a couple of years or so ago.  I reckon the reason that most decided not to raise an objection was because they all knew the former landowner, a local farmer . . .

[Big Jimbo]

7 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

 

That pretty much sums up the unofficial (pre-meeting) debate, most were in favour of just letting it go, but one was being officious and trying to make a fuss.  TBH, I could see why when I went up there, as it was pretty clear that the original mobile home had been very carefully hidden, surrounded by old sheds that had only recently been knocked down.  This was also clear on Google Earth, with older imagery showing that the place had been surrounded by timber sheds until a couple of years or so ago.  I reckon the reason that most decided not to raise an objection was because they all knew the former landowner, a local farmer . . .

And that's the trouble Jeremy. If you are on the P.C. and want a swimming pool enclosure, or a large extension. No problem. At the last P.C. meeting, they were looking at a total of 12 planning applications. No new builds, just extensions. They objected to all of them. That means that all those applications now have to go to committee. What a waste of public funds, and time. They have zero training, and i would go as far as taking the vote away from them. The only people who should be allowed to object, are the neighbours who may be directly effected.

[Big Jimbo]

17 hours ago, Waterworks said:

You might think I'm nuts but I want to live on my own in a " hut "in the woods, all I want is a water source, some solar pv, a compost toilet system, an outdoor shower and a wood burning stove, I want total peace and quiet with no neighbours. I already live on a boat but I'm dealing with multiple restrictions , licences, permits, noise and PITA neighbours , so I'm ready to take the step to real isolation.

 

However I can't find any legal way to do it, even if I buy woodland I can't live there and even wrecked abandoned houses in far rural locations are way above my budget. It looks like its not possible for me to legally live like this in the UK, which seems daft to me because I certainly wouldn't be bothering anyone else and in fact using less rescouces than most. 

 

My best plan so far is to buy some isolated woodland and live in a shepherds hut and see what happens. Living in fear of being found out isn't ideal. 

 

 

 

 

Some of the boat people can be a strange breed. I know a few boaters who have managed to reside on the wrong side of the canal, against land that was gifted years ago for the enjoyment of the public. They told the relevant bods to bugger off when they came knocking, and have been there for years.