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Internal Scaffolding?


puntloos

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[generic gripe] - the building trade really loves to say something is "very expensive" and only when pressed multiple times coming out with any meaningful number

Anyway..

 

Can someone give me a more-detailed-than-'oh, very expensive' idea of how much it costs to build a house right on the border of the property? In particular it would mean we'd have to use internal scaffolding, but perhaps there are other considerations too? Which factors play into this? One thing to mention is that the neighbour's property does not touch the border, about 1m walkway on their side.

 

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8 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Get agreement from the neighbour for scaffold over their walkway?

 

If you are even considering anything else must mean they have said no already?

 

Ha, I hadn't actually thought of that option- no idea why! We're actually quite friendly with the neighbours, I suspect they wouldn't mind....

 

Would you try to get it in writing? Or is some verbal agreement sufficient?

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For you I'd think some verbal agreement would be sufficient. If I was the neighbour, though, I'd get something in writing, just an email or whatever, about not damaging anything or putting right any damage done.

 

When I was about 6 or 7 the “new” house in this row was built. We lived in the house immediately down hill of it. My parents gave their builders permission to put up scaffolding in our garden so long as they didn't damage any of the plants. First thing they did was cut a big bush almost down to ground level. Caused a lot of ill feeling though we were eventually friendly enough with the people.

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A few bottles usually helps negotiations, also if mention that the facing brickwork will be much better finish than if built inside out it will soon make sense.

 

Offer to take a walk round each day and keep their side tidy, perhaps even have in mind to sheet the scaffold on the side of their house if necessary to prevent dust and mortar getting on their property.

 

 

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If you need to build in this location can you not design out the hard bits and design in a way to construct it without going next door very much. 

So a timberframe kit, pre covered in the appropriate membrane then clad with a fireproof outer cladding

cladding installed on site and panels lifted into position 

you then only need to go next door to fit corner trims

gable barge boards can be fixed overhand from on the roof. 

 

Not somthing i would like to do much but would save on scaffolding. 

 

Is there a reason to build up to the boundary, it’s something I did a fair bit of in London and I would really avoid it if possible. 

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3 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

If you need to build in this location can you not design out the hard bits and design in a way to construct it without going next door very much. 

So a timberframe kit, pre covered in the appropriate membrane then clad with a fireproof outer cladding

cladding installed on site and panels lifted into position 

you then only need to go next door to fit corner trims

 

Sounds very sensible advice, thank you. Will heed.

 

3 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

gable barge boards can be fixed overhand from on the roof. 

 

Not somthing i would like to do much but would save on scaffolding. 

 

Is there a reason to build up to the boundary, it’s something I did a fair bit of in London and I would really avoid it if possible. 

 

Only reason is that it's a small plot and to achieve the amount of internal space I'd like to see.. etc etc.

 

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3 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

If you need to build in this location can you not design out the hard bits and design in a way to construct it without going next door very much. 

So a timberframe kit, pre covered in the appropriate membrane then clad with a fireproof outer cladding

cladding installed on site and panels lifted into position 

you then only need to go next door to fit corner trims

 

Sounds very sensible advice, thank you. Will heed.

 

3 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

gable barge boards can be fixed overhand from on the roof. 

 

Not somthing i would like to do much but would save on scaffolding. 

 

Is there a reason to build up to the boundary, it’s something I did a fair bit of in London and I would really avoid it if possible. 

 

Only reason is that it's a small plot and to achieve the amount of internal space I'd like to see.. etc etc.

6 hours ago, JFDIY said:

A few bottles usually helps negotiations, also if mention that the facing brickwork will be much better finish than if built inside out it will soon make sense.

 

Interesting point, why is this?

 

 

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15 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

If you are going brick I would definitely ask the neighbour if you can erect scaffolding in their garden.

If they are keen gardeners, get them a Dobbies Club membership.  It costs nothing, and they may go out for the afternoon.

Having said that, I did NOT ask a woman out because she suggested that we met at a garden centre.

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6 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Having said that, I did NOT ask a woman out because she suggested that we met at a garden centre.

One of our local garden centres has a very nice bistro, mostly the reason we go there.

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  • 2 weeks later...

One question that came up recently. My architect said that scaffolding is only one part of the problem. Building to the edge of the property also requires the foundations to be specially designed in an asymmetric way to avoid encroaching on someone else’s land. 

 

Assuming it's true in principle, is this a major issue to be avoided 'at all cost'? Can someone speak to the downsides, perhaps cost, quality of structure, etc etc?

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4 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

I’m not keen on properties right on the boundary 

you cannot get a good roof overhang, so the side wall catches a lot of weather 

hard to maintain 

if you can set it 300mm back you can use standard footings and get an overhang on the roof. 

 

300mm should be fine, my architect says that 1000mm is the absolute minimum before her above point ("asymmetric foundation") starts to become a problem. 

But still, is asymmetric *that* problematic or will it just be a bit more expensive? (where 'a bit' is perhaps thousands but not tens of thousands?)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just to recap a bit:

 

I think the three options are:
 

1m:

- pro: easiest

- con: least amount of internal space

 

0cm:

- pro: most space

- con: asymmetric foundations

- con:  legal paperwork

- con: favours from neighbours

- con: similar issues for maintenance in the future

- con: wall will be exposed to weather (no overhang)

- con: internal scaffolding, harder pricier

- con: planning permission approvals might be harder

 

30cm:

- pro: decent space

- pro: no asymmetric foundation

- pro: overhang possible

- con: still need to deal with neighbors

- con: still planning approval challenge perhaps?

 

All in all, it seems that 30cm seems to be optimal, but it depends a bit on the neighbors.

 

Question: what's the absolute minimum width that can still use standard (non-internal) scaffolding? In particular, our neighbours also have a one-storey extension that is near the edge, best guess 1m away.. could be a bit less, but not completely at the border. Can scaffolding sort-of taper outward, or does it need to be xyz mm all the way down?

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Sorry not answering the question, but a different angle to take maybe get the PP with 30cm and take the option to increase the gap to say 50 or 80 post approval, once you've have answers to everything else (including the Party Wall Agreement process)

 

Caveat: I have no idea how much you can decrease house footprint by and still be compliant to the PP approval granted, but it's surely gotta be easier than increasing footprint post approval

 

Edit to add: in an old (terrace) house we had neighbours put scaffolding on our side of a boundary, when they realised their own extension was in the way of their own loft conversion. I think they sneaked this in as an extra ask after I'd signed the party wall agreement, I surely could have kicked up a fuss over it but didn't. 

Edited by joth
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4 hours ago, joth said:

Sorry not answering the question, but a different angle to take maybe get the PP with 30cm and take the option to increase the gap to say 50 or 80 post approval, once you've have answers to everything else (including the Party Wall Agreement process)

 

Not sure you're just allowed to 'wiggle your way around' a PP? I suppose "13.5m" is only 3-4% away from "13m" but still..

 

4 hours ago, joth said:

Caveat: I have no idea how much you can decrease house footprint by and still be compliant to the PP approval granted, but it's surely gotta be easier than increasing footprint post approval

 

Fair. 

 

 

4 hours ago, joth said:

Edit to add: in an old (terrace) house we had neighbours put scaffolding on our side of a boundary, when they realised their own extension was in the way of their own loft conversion. I think they sneaked this in as an extra ask after I'd signed the party wall agreement, I surely could have kicked up a fuss over it but didn't. 

 

Prep for a blood feud with our future neighbors. Got it. ;)

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56 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Not sure you're just allowed to 'wiggle your way around' a PP?

Right. We got ours approved with 3 skylights we had no intention of installing, and several other openings are moving/changing size by a couple 10s of cm, and all seems no big shakes -- neither in increased risk to the application itself, nor to the make changes after approval. Proximity to boundary though: I imagine there's some well established thresholds and if you go beyond them it will trigger Problems in the PP that make it not worth it unless you're 100% committed to trying to get it and use it.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, joth said:

Right. We got ours approved with 3 skylights we had no intention of installing, and several other openings are moving/changing size by a couple 10s of cm, and all seems no big shakes -- neither in increased risk to the application itself, nor to the make changes after approval. Proximity to boundary though: I imagine there's some well established thresholds and if you go beyond them it will trigger Problems in the PP that make it not worth it unless you're 100% committed to trying to get it and use it.

 

I suppose the next question is: "how does one find out where those limits are"? Is 29.998cm the minimum below which they complain?

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3 hours ago, joe90 said:

Do you know EXACTLY where the boundary is?, is it your fence/hedge/wall, this can make a difference of a few 100mm (in your favour ?)

 

Tis tough, I do have a lot of data but I'd say the accuracy I can work with is in he area of 250mm.. agreed it does start to add up..

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