OpenReach and flyover rights.

[epsilonGreedy]

Last week was going well until I noticed a lurking OpenReach surveyor looking at my plot.

 

My BT connection is all sorted and will be underground when the house is built. The new problem is that a nearby property has requested a BT connection and OpenReach is saying that flying the new connection over my plot is the simplest solution for the new connection to the other property. The cable's aerial route will cross the whole 45m width of my plot and the total span from pole to the gable end of the other property is 61m. 

 

The surveyor initially told me the max span for a cable was 55m then after measuring the distance he amended that claim by saying "we will use a special 2-core cable designed to span up to 68m".

 

The problem is the cable will pass 5m south of my house wall and I fear it will be very conspicuous. We purchased the plot because of the southerly orientation of the house and patio.

 

The other property that has requested the new connection is actually positioned 2m away from the verge of a public road and another cable route is feasible along that public road though it will require one extra telegraph pole.

 

Reading up on this subject I gather OpenReach has broad statute rights to route cables over a property providing the cable does not drop below 3m or pass within 2m of part of a property structure.

 

Does anyone know how low this proposed cable might drop? The starting point is 5m high from a wood telegraph pole and the other end 61m away will be a metal gantry bolted onto the gable of the other property.   

Edited December 8, 2019 by epsilonGreedy

[MJNewton]

I know nothing about this sort of thing but, thinking aloud, if you were to start to raise some sort of temporary structure (scaffold pole for, say, a ham radio aerial?) right along where the crow would fly between the two ends would that stop them? Whilst they might have flyover rights surely that wouldn't be at the detriment to your freedom to do what you want on your land, or am I showing my ignorance?

[Onoff]

Just deny the f**kers access. 

[joe90]

As an ex BT engineer (decades ago!!!) I was stopped from erecting a span to a house over a neighbours garden and the upshot was an additional pole was installed to avoid the “intrusion”. No idea of current policy

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Just deny the f**kers access. 

 

Not required, the cable is fixed to house and walked around to pole and tensioned. Can’t be done if a tall tree exists!.

[ProDave]

Plant a Leylanii directly in the path and point out to the OR person that it won't be long before that snags the line so it would not be a good idea to put it there.

 

Then later when the house is otherwise connected, change your mind and dig the tree up.

[Onoff]

12 minutes ago, joe90 said:

 

Not required, the cable is fixed to house and walked around to pole and tensioned. Can’t be done if a tall tree exists!.

 

Put some bat boxes up and tell them it's a flight path! 

[Temp]

I would try and get it sorted now because adding/moving a pole later can be expensive.

 

https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/obtaining-wayleaves

 

What are flying wires?

These are wires which “fly” across one property from telegraph poles on another property. We’re sometimes allowed to install these without needing a wayleave, but only if:

 

* we don’t need to enter the property to do it

* the wires are 3 metres or more

* they don’t interfere with normal business at the property.

 

Tell them about the boat you need to work on?

 

As a last resort offer to pay for the extra pole? Think that would be around £1k? 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Temp

[Temp]

This BT forum has some replies from tech staff. Might be the place to ask about the droop.

https://community.bt.com/t5/Landline/bd-p/Faults

[Bozza]

If you search out the telecommunications act on the internet, it’s hard reading but will be helpful.  Read it in full.  I had a different issue than you have and and I had to do some research.  From my recollection you are right there are statutory rights for openreach to install equipment, wires etc on or over private property and gain access to do so but my recollection is there is a process for a landowner to object etc to proposed installation.

 

If as you say the line would have to go over a certain route on your land then I would agree with others, put something in that would make it difficult for them to do so.

 

Sounds like a line 5m from your proposed house would be a safety hazard as you would need scaffolding cranes etc....

 

Good luck openreach are awful to deal with.  If there is a reasonable alternative route as you suggest you need to make that option far more attractive for them than it currently is.  By means of making your plot route as unattractive them as much as you can within the law.  That why you need to read the Act in full.   Letters to MPs that kind of thing.  

 

 

 

 

[Onoff]

Would a duct across your land be the lesser of two evils? Any option for you to dig the trench (for the cost of diesel) and maybe even supply/lay a suitable duct? You would then be able to present a viable alternative to overhead. Even go as far as to state on the lines of "in view of local bird/bat flight paths and in anticipation of future needs". Any mature trees that could potentially fall onto an overhead?

 

You're not going to have the same in the future with other utilities wanting to dig/oversail your land?

Edited December 9, 2019 by Onoff

[Bozza]

3 hours ago, Onoff said:

Would a duct across your land be the lesser of two evils? Any option for you to dig the trench (for the cost of diesel) and maybe even supply/lay a suitable duct? You would then be able to present a viable alternative to overhead. Even go as far as to state on the lines of "in view of local bird/bat flight paths and in anticipation of future needs". Any mature trees that could potentially fall onto an overhead?

 

You're not going to have the same in the future with other utilities wanting to dig/oversail your land?

Assuming there is a route under your land that wouldn’t impact upon your build etc this is a good idea/ suggestion.   I may be wrong but I believe openreach prefer to cable underground as it’s lower maintenance for them.  If digging a trench for them is of no / nominal cost to you then I’d be really surprised if they didn’t take you up on that offer.  The cost of cabling / ducting would be so low for them.  To get a digger in would be their biggest cost.

 

My scenario with OR was that they had third party lines going across my land being carried on a electricity pole.  I paid SSE to have their pole removed etc, so openreach were told to remove their line by SSE.  I offered openreach that they could re route their line under my plot if they wanted to.  It was far easier and cheaper for them to install a new pole at the other side of the road and away from my land.   Which is what they did.

 

For openreach its it’s all about their cheapest and easiest route.  As I said before present them an option that’s the cheapest and easiest for them other than over your land.  Though OR as an organisation were awful to deal with their project manager was decent.  I even offered they could use my land to park their vehicles when doing their work to make their job easier etc.    

 

If you know the legislation namely your rights to object to their proposal that will mean they will know your job will be a problem for them like anyone they’ll want the hassle free option if they can.  Carrot and stick.  

 

Also so if you get on well with your neighbour maybes ask them to speak to openreach saying having their cable of your land may cause neighbourly problems etc.  

 

Good luck and would be interested in how you get on.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[epsilonGreedy]

3 hours ago, Onoff said:

Would a duct across your land be the lesser of two evils? Any option for you to dig the trench (for the cost of diesel) and maybe even supply/lay a suitable duct?

 

 

I suggested that as we could have shared the cost because I want a french drain in the long run.

 

3 hours ago, Onoff said:

Any mature trees that could potentially fall onto an overhead?

 

 

Suggested flyover route goes through two trees, one is a mature willow and the other is a 15ft high cherry tree. The OpenReach surveyor claimed these would not create  problem for the cable. However the willow is due for another pollard pruning which will be problematic once the cable runs through the tree.

 

4 hours ago, Onoff said:

You're not going to have the same in the future with other utilities wanting to dig/oversail your land?

 

 

No the other utilities are connected to that property, all short runs from the public road direct into their plot.

 

The flying BT connection is needed because there is no underground ducting for a BT cable into this new build.

[JFDIY]

Don't Pollard the tree until issue is resolved, might help your cause. They shouldn't be pruning your tree to clear a new cable, different if already installed I'd imagine that then they can prune for clearance. Deny them access

 

Be unfortunate if the cable did go in and was pulled down by a falling branch at a future date ?

 

 

[epsilonGreedy]

2 hours ago, JFDIY said:

Be unfortunate if the cable did go in and was pulled down by a falling branch at a future date ?

 

 

This is my one of my actual concerns, if the flying connection goes in and 3 years later the tree brings the line down I am liable unless a way-leave specifies otherwise.

 

Anyhow things took a turn for the worse this morning, just 6.5 days elapsed since the initial OpenReach survey a contractor arrived at 9:30 this morning to rig the line. I told him I was denying access, he takes photos to illustrate the job complexity to HQ and drives off while the neighbour is remonstrating with me about my unreasonable behaviour. "remonstrate" vastly understates the severity of the confrontation.

 

The original surveyor comprehended the complexities of the job and should have flagged the job as requiring a signed way-leave from me, before the neighbour's hopes were raised. Instead OpenReach subcontracted to a non OpenReach outfit. It is perverse that just when some think-time is required a utility company can go from survey to installation in a single week.

[joe90]

BT has gone downhill since I left ?. @epsilonGreedy I don’t blame you I would do the same, if your neighbour does not understand he is being unreasonable, I also bet he would be unreasonable if his line was brought down by your tree or builder. No win situation.

[Onoff]

Just found this to muddy the waters:

 

https://community.bt.com/t5/BT-com-Community-feedback/Wayleave-Payments/td-p/1680783

 

 Could you put bfo trampoline under the route? ?

 

[JFDIY]

Or take up drone flying, would severely 'hamper your enjoyment of the land' if you couldn't use half your garden

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

BT has gone downhill since I left ?. @epsilonGreedy I don’t blame you I would do the same, if your neighbour does not understand he is being unreasonable, I also bet he would be unreasonable if his line was brought down by your tree or builder. No win situation.

 

 

I feel OpenReach is at fault as well because I ended up with just a couple of minutes this morning to make a snap decision about whether to bar access to my plot for the job to go ahead. If they need access surely they should contact an owner min a week ahead of the installation to discuss a way leave.

 

Does anyone know the likely cost of calling back OpenReach in few years to disconnect a 60m flyover connection and then pull the line through an underground conduit dug by me?

[joe90]

1 minute ago, epsilonGreedy said:

I feel OpenReach is at fault as well

 

OpenReach is part of BT IMO (split up by government interference).

[vivienz]

I would be very cautious about letting any utility company put anything across my plot without a written agreement. Once it's done and situ it's far, far harder to change anthing compared to when they want something, i.e. access to your property. Utilities are quick enough to invoke their rights (even if they don't have them) but uncooperative at best when matters are the other way around.

[Ed Davies]

14 hours ago, joe90 said:

OpenReach is part of BT IMO (split up by government interference).

 

You mean, given a monopoly across most of the UK by government interference.

[joe90]

10 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

 

You mean, given a monopoly across most of the UK by government interference.

 

BT was a monopoly and openreach was split off to “encourage competition” a bit like British rail and network rail.

[joe90]

I found this on the telecommunications act website,..

 

10. (1) Subject to paragraph 3 above and the following provisions of this code, where any electronic communications apparatus is kept installed on or over any land for the purposes of the operator’s network, the operator shall, for the statutory purposes, have the right to install and keep installed lines which— 

(a) pass over other land adjacent to or in the vicinity of the land on or over which that apparatus is so kept; 

(b) are connected to that apparatus; and 

(c) are not at any point in the course of passing over the other land less than 3 metres above the ground or within 2 metres of any building over which they pass. 




(2) Nothing in sub-paragraph (1) above shall authorise the installation or keeping on or over any land of— 

(a) any electronic communications apparatus used to support, carry or suspend a line installed in pursuance of that sub-paragraph; or 

(b) any line which by reason of its position interferes with the carrying on of any business carried on on that land. 

 

It appears that as long as it’s 3m high and not within 2m of a building permission is not required!!!!!!!

[Carrerahill]

On 08/12/2019 at 20:26, Onoff said:

Just deny the f**kers access. 

That is how I would do it.

 

Assuming there is no way for them to get the cable across your property other than to walk across your property I would just do this. I would probably serve Openreach with a a writ (£20-30 in court) simply telling them you do not permit any access to your land. If you then find they do enter your land sneakily to put up the cable you then have more ground to stand on as you implicitly told them. Even a very well written letter denying all access would work but may be ignored.

 

This is actually a big problem at the moment in the UK - all the Openreach cables are going in for fibre broadband, you will note on telegraph poles fibre junction boxes and new poles going up left right and centre and pavements being dug up all in the aid of some faster internet.

 

I noticed Openreach contractors going in and out our neighbours garden a month ago, I text her and warned her what they would be up to and not to accept the pole in her garden - they duly turned up with their offer, £150. She said no and that was that. So they tried to put a pole into a little patch of land behind hers, but she said they were not allowed into her garden (they were literally about to carry a telegraph pole through her garden) she stopped them from coming in and that was the end of that.

 

This whole Openreach network upgrade is a disgrace and a waste of time, money, resources and a lot of dug up roads and mess.