Plastic vs Copper pipes for radiators

[scottishjohn]

On 29/11/2019 at 09:09, Onoff said:

Youre all missing a (cheap) trick!

 

Nasty black waste pipe (or indeed white plastic)?

 

 

Nice bit 'o foil tape:

 

 

Brought to you by Mr Cheapseats.

 

?

my wife would go potty if i left gaps like that for her to clean-- 

all things in bathroom and toilet areas must have no gaps and sealed to meet her spec  for cleaning 

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

my wife would go potty if i left gaps like that for her to clean-- 

all things in bathroom and toilet areas must have no gaps and sealed to meet her spec  for cleaning 

 

This is meant to get a white upvc infill panel some time...

[PeterW]

51 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

This is meant to get a white upvc infill panel some time...

..... in 2026.... 

 

Why rush these things ... 

[Onoff]

6 minutes ago, PeterW said:

..... in 2026.... 

 

Why rush these things ... 

 

In the year 2025

If @Onoff is still alive...

 

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

 

In the year 2025

If @Onoff is still alive...

 

zagger + evans i presume

Edited December 6, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Onoff]

52 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

zagger + evans i presume

 

Indeed, (as later covered by Steve Strange / Visage).

[ruggers]

On 02/12/2019 at 14:03, MikeGrahamT21 said:

+1 for MLCP Pipe.

 

I got 16mm pipe, manifold with 16mm eurocones, and eurocones for all of the radiator ends, and ran full lengths from manifold direct to rads. No joints at all, so no ability to leak in horrible hard to reach spaces!

 

Using plastic pipe can be a bad idea for radiators, as the integral oxygen barrier of things like JG tend to only work up to 50C, which most heating systems will run above. MLCP has an aluminium liner, so doesn't suffer from this, so overall things should last a lot longer, and as a bonus, if you have any mice knocking about, they shouldn't get through aluminium.

This is what I'd like to do but never used Eurocones so not understanding them fully.
Are eurocones always required to connect any size MLCP pipe to a manifold, even if both are the same size? ie: 16mm pipe into a 16mm manifold, or just when the two are different sizes?

Most UFH manifolds I've seen are for 16mm pipe except polyplumb which takes 15mm pipe.
Standard radiator lock shields take a 15mm pipe and if i want to insert 16mm pipe direct from the manifold to the radiator in one run, I want to know the best way to do so to make it fit the 15 lock shield valve?

 

how did you do this?

Edited December 7, 2020 by ruggers

[Russell griffiths]

A euro cone is basically the same as a nut and an olive

just the same as any compression fitting 

if the manifold has been made to have a Euro cone fitting then that’s all that will fit it as the inside is machined to except a Euro cone. 

Dont panick they are dead easy to use and 100% bomb proof

what you will need is the little tool to shape the end of the pipe nicely so the Euro cone insert seats nicely into the pipe. 

 

Do a bit of you tube searching, 100% you must use the correct pipe cutter, do not be attempting to carve the pipe around with a hacksaw. 

 

If you haven’t bought all your bits yet you can get very nice rad valves that take a Euro cone. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Russell griffiths

[ruggers]

No i haven't bought anything yet, it's for a new build next year, so I've just been getting info on the things i want to use. I have seen the euro cone, nut, split olive and insert but wondered if the cone was to match the pipe size or not. Just wanted the pipe to come out of the floor into the valve, no under floor joints. I've always used soldered copper but I'd imagine it's hard now with posi joists to pass lengths through at 600 centres

In the past I've only used 15mm radiator valves so didn't know if it was bad practice in the UK to fit 16mm valves or if they aren't common. 15mm pex or pert pipe and manifolds seem to be less common and more expensive in the UK.

 

I'm having wet UFH ground floor and zoned radiators upstairs on an UFH manifold upstairs controlled with actuators. It makes it easier if I use the same pipe upstairs & down if I get one that can take higher temperature but if need be i could have 16 down and 15 up if it was easier for the radiators.

[Russell griffiths]

Look at some of the foreign stuff, we are still living in the 60s, some of the nice rads have both valves on one end of the rad so you get this very neat two port valve, plumbed from underneath so no pipe tails on show at all. 

 

It is also easier to get the spacing right as you just know that pipes ate 50-60-70mm apart rather than knowing  size of the rad. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Russell griffiths

[Russell griffiths]

[Dave Jones]

On 28/11/2019 at 18:59, Alexphd1 said:

Just out of curiosity are we talking a full UFH type of manifold or just a old school micro bore type manifold? We are using a ufh type manifold on our upstairs rads so we can control flow temp from thermal store and no TRV's just room stats via phone app. 

 

I dont like painted copper pipes as it's very rarely painted nice (always paint over the valve nuts etc). I do like plain copper or chrome pipe especially to towel rails etc. I would not have push fit fittings on show either as the pretty bulky. Most of our jobs we took the white mlcp (uponor) plastic pipe rite to the radiator valve and used a chrome nut. Never had any customers complain. 

 

Ps carpet had yet to be fitted at that job.

 

never out the floor looks terrible. Elbow out of the wall behind.

[PeterW]

8 hours ago, ruggers said:

I'm having wet UFH ground floor and zoned radiators upstairs on an UFH manifold upstairs controlled with actuators. It makes it easier if I use the same pipe upstairs & down if I get one that can take higher temperature but if need be i could have 16 down and 15 up if it was easier for the radiators.

Not sure how it makes it easier to use 16mm both places ..? 99.9% of UK rad fittings are designed for either 8/10/15mm pipe and I have never seen one for 16mm readily available. If you’re running from a UFH manifold then use Hep2O in 15mm straight to the radiator and use a standard 1/2”/compression elbow on the rad and pipe straight to it. UFH manifolds come with various cones and connectors and 15mm is one of them. You would then be using standard fittings throughout and there is no saving between buying PEX/PERT pipe and Hep2O at 50m reels so there is no cost benefit. 
 

Also don’t understand your comment about higher temperatures ..? What are you planning on heating the house with ..? Gas / Oil / ASHP..?? All the pipe on the UK market, including the PEX/PERT products are rated to 90°C so you have no issues on heating systems anyway. 
 

 

[MikeGrahamT21]

5 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Not sure how it makes it easier to use 16mm both places ..? 99.9% of UK rad fittings are designed for either 8/10/15mm pipe and I have never seen one for 16mm readily available. If you’re running from a UFH manifold then use Hep2O in 15mm straight to the radiator and use a standard 1/2”/compression elbow on the rad and pipe straight to it. UFH manifolds come with various cones and connectors and 15mm is one of them. You would then be using standard fittings throughout and there is no saving between buying PEX/PERT pipe and Hep2O at 50m reels so there is no cost benefit. 
 

Also don’t understand your comment about higher temperatures ..? What are you planning on heating the house with ..? Gas / Oil / ASHP..?? All the pipe on the UK market, including the PEX/PERT products are rated to 90°C so you have no issues on heating systems anyway. 
 

 

My entire system was cheaper than using a comparable 15mm pipe system, and the only non-standard bits that are used as the eurocones, I fitted the 16mm eurocones inside the standard TRVs, and the lockshields were purpose bought 16mm eurocone ones but were cheaper than their 15mm counterparts. The 16mm MLCP pipe is a million times better than any PEX ive ever used, and I wouldn't recommend anything else for any form of heating now

 

All my kit came from https://pswtradesuppliers.co.uk/

[PeterW]

20 minutes ago, MikeGrahamT21 said:

My entire system was cheaper than using a comparable 15mm pipe system, and the only non-standard bits that are used as the eurocones, I fitted the 16mm eurocones inside the standard TRVs, and the lockshields were purpose bought 16mm eurocone ones but were cheaper than their 15mm counterparts. The 16mm MLCP pipe is a million times better than any PEX ive ever used, and I wouldn't recommend anything else for any form of heating now

 

All my kit came from https://pswtradesuppliers.co.uk/

Got a link to the actual eurocone lockshield valves ..? May have a use for those on a towel rail... 

 

 I think you’ve posted a link to this supplier  before but when I asked them for any more info on the fittings (certs/guarantees etc) they didn’t respond other than to say the parts came from Europe - with Hep2O you get 50 years and full WRAS certification. There is also no MLCP reference on their site any more - all PEX-Al-PEX and the UFH parts so wonder if they have stopped referring to it as MLCP (for reference, PEX-Al-PEX or PERT are both classed as MLCP or Multi Layer Composite Pipe for those not knowing the acronyms)
 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by PeterW
Clarified the acronyms

[MikeGrahamT21]

12 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Got a link to the actual eurocone lockshield valves ..? May have a use for those on a towel rail... 

 

 I think you’ve posted a link to this supplier  before but when I asked them for any more info on the fittings (certs/guarantees etc) they didn’t respond other than to say the parts came from Europe - with Hep2O you get 50 years and full WRAS certification. There is also no MLCP on their site any more - all PEX and the UFH parts so wonder if they have stopped doing it. 
 

 

I can't see the lockshields listed anymore actually. I've got loads spare if you are after one or two or them, just PM me your address and I'll send some over to you.

 

The MLCP stuff is still there, its all listed under UFH Water Heating System. Their website has changed a lot since I bought from them and its harder to find stuff now.

 

Also the pipe has WRAS printed on it:

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by MikeGrahamT21

[PeterW]

Just now, MikeGrahamT21 said:

I can't see the lockshields listed anymore actually. I've got loads spare if you are after one or two or them, just PM me your address and I'll send some over to you.

 

The MLCP stuff is still there, its all listed under UFH Water Heating System. Their website has changed a lot since I bought from them and its harder to find stuff now.

Thanks Mike - I may do that ! They list it all as PEX now which is what I thought - will see if they have any certificates for it now as need to specify those normally. 

[Alexphd1]

@Dave Jones  99% of retro fit around this area is out the floor. When you mention cutting holes in nicely decorated plaster its usually a no. I am not to fussed either way as long as they are not run superficially and boxed in.

[Dave Jones]

2 hours ago, Alexphd1 said:

@Dave Jones  99% of retro fit around this area is out the floor. When you mention cutting holes in nicely decorated plaster its usually a no. I am not to fussed either way as long as they are not run superficially and boxed in.

 

its behind the skirting, looks much more professional.

[Alexphd1]

Do you have any pictures? Any behind the skirting system I have seen usually consists of micro bore and looks like a dogs dinner but that was a while ago maybe things have changed.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Alexphd1

[ruggers]

13 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

never out the floor looks terrible. Elbow out of the wall behind.

It's for a new build with dot & dab walls & scurtain board, most radiators are external walls so it would be hard to get 15/16mm pipe & fitting hidden otherwise i agree, also i don't like TRV horizontally adding to the length of the radiator.

13 hours ago, PeterW said:

Not sure how it makes it easier to use 16mm both places ..? 99.9% of UK rad fittings are designed for either 8/10/15mm pipe and I have never seen one for 16mm readily available. If you’re running from a UFH manifold then use Hep2O in 15mm straight to the radiator and use a standard 1/2”/compression elbow on the rad and pipe straight to it. UFH manifolds come with various cones and connectors and 15mm is one of them. You would then be using standard fittings throughout and there is no saving between buying PEX/PERT pipe and Hep2O at 50m reels so there is no cost benefit. 
 

Also don’t understand your comment about higher temperatures ..? What are you planning on heating the house with ..? Gas / Oil / ASHP..?? All the pipe on the UK market, including the PEX/PERT products are rated to 90°C so you have no issues on heating systems anyway. 
 

 

Does this mean if you use 15mm pipe & cones, that the manifold ports need to be 15mm, you can't fit 15mm pipe to a 16mm manifold? I'd like to use 15mm upstairs but there only seems to be polypipe that use 15mm manifolds. I was told they are an excellent manifold because flow isn't affected on the other zones when others open & close unlike cheaper manifolds, but a 9 port polypipe manifold is £300 without anything else which is a lot more than other models. I don't want to skimp on important components but haven't got money to throw away. 15mm x 1/2" angled rad valves with compression fitting are about £3.50 each. The only 16mm valves are £16 each.

I'll be using a gas system boiler & unvented cylinder, UFH downstairs on 4 zones with actuators, and rads upstairs with 5 zones using manifold & some actuators. Some pipe I seen was max 60 degrees and rads will be 65 to 75  degrees depending ho i size them.

13 hours ago, MikeGrahamT21 said:

My entire system was cheaper than using a comparable 15mm pipe system, and the only non-standard bits that are used as the eurocones, I fitted the 16mm eurocones inside the standard TRVs, and the lockshields were purpose bought 16mm eurocone ones but were cheaper than their 15mm counterparts. The 16mm MLCP pipe is a million times better than any PEX ive ever used, and I wouldn't recommend anything else for any form of heating now

 

All my kit came from https://pswtradesuppliers.co.uk/

16mm manifolds and pipe seem to be easy to get hold of everywhere, but it's not cheap or easy to source angled radiator valves. Unless theres an insert or cone fitting i'm unaware of that allows 15mm pipe into a 16mm manifold, i have an expensive problem at either end. Its a 15mm manifold vs 16mm radiator valves. Using 16/15mm inline reducer under the floor means joints under the floor.

Edited December 8, 2020 by ruggers
price typo

[PeterW]

Polypipe manifolds are crap... and expensive crap too ..! Save your money and buy from Wunda or one of the other online suppliers 

 

23 minutes ago, ruggers said:

16mm manifolds and pipe seem to be easy to get hold of everywhere, but it's not cheap or easy to source angled radiator valves.

If you’re having a manifold that will be controlling / supplying each radiator,  why do you want rad valves at the radiator end ..? Flow control will be done by the actuator and the flow meter so you don’t need valves. These would be fine

 

 https://pswtradesuppliers.co.uk/brass-compression-fittings/78-16x12-male-elbow.html

 

 

 

[ruggers]

Any reason why you think they are crap? They are definitely expensive, someone just said they had excellent flow rates. I don't know what makes a good or a bad one, they all look the same so i'm relying on people who install & replace them regular to give me theirs views.

 

I've not seen them elbows before, they would do but the reason i wanted standard valves on, was incase i remove the radiator to decorate or replace i suppose. I like to have one of them straight tails with an inline drain off on radiators, then an angled valve or lock shield. 

 

Theres 9 radiators total, 5 or 6 will be actuator controlled, 3 or 4 will just connected on the open circuit (So heat up when any others call for heat) because they are in bathrooms, some are towel rails.

 

 

[Alexphd1]

We just used normal danfoss rlv-d lockshields on both sides of the rads.

[ruggers]

23 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

We just used normal danfoss rlv-d lockshields on both sides of the rads.

What pipe did you use with them? They only accept 15mm pipe.

I need to join pert or pex from the manifold to each radiator. I can't think of any way other than having the manifold inlets and the radiator fittings both 15/15 or 16/16 to have one jointless run of pipe from end to end.

 

Or pay 4 times the price for 16mm lockshields on the rads at £16 each.