Eaves - soffit or what?

[Roz]

Alright.... so we're about to insulate the roof. I thought I was going to put insect mesh over the gaps in the eaves until I realised the roofers had put ventilation thingys above, so I can block the eaves right?

Question is, should I do it from below or above? Would it be weird to do it from below? I'm tempted by the small chunks of wood and sealing around them rather than having to make a soffit fit to the  barn wall? It varies in width along the length of the eaves.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Roz

[Roz]

1 minute ago, Sensus said:

How much, what type, and where are you putting your insulation?

 

If it's fibreglass insulation, and a cold roof (insulation at ceiling level) then we're experiencing serious problems with loft condensation, these days.

 

The precise mechanism is variable, and in some instances additional ventilation actually makes things worse, but equally it sometimes helps. Since it's easier to replace insect mesh vents with solid blocks/strips than the other way around, I'd be inclined to stick to your plan to use the former, and see how you get on.

 

If you do decide to block the soffits, personally I'd do it with strips of Medite Exterior or similar, fixed to the underside of the rafter feet, rather than individual blocks of wood inserted between the rafters.

 

We're using 90mm celotex and about 30mm ventilation gap. We've got breather membrane under the tiles but the building control officer recommended at least 25mm gap anyway. 

It's a warm roof, underneath this we'll have insulated plasterboard too. Does that change anything?

[Roz]

1 hour ago, Sensus said:

 

Yes, very much so. In that case, ignore what I said: there'd be no benefit to the additional ventilation, if it's a warm roof. I assume you've got an insulated plasterboard ceiling as well as the 90mm. Celotex between the rafters? 90mm. Celotex isn't a lot, on its own, these days.

 

I'd still be inclined to block the soffits using strips rather than individual chunks of wood between the rafters, though - I think you'd find it easier.

Yes 90mm celotex between the rafters and insulated plasterboard ceiling OK great I will look up the  Medite you mentioned!

[Oz07]

Why does more ventilation make worse sometimes @Sensus ? Any rules of thumb?

[Oz07]

I see. I have heard stories myself. Is it generally true that more ventilation is better than less though?

[Nickfromwales]

19 hours ago, Sensus said:

 

I see that my post above has been edited as a 'personal attack', which it wasn't. I mentioned no names, but was merely explaining why I'm not willing to offer a comprehensive explanation on this forum. I really don't like having to say 'it's this way, because I say it is', but I simply don't have the time to enter into the inevitable protracted debate if I go into more detail. Life's too short.

There is a pattern developing where you selectively but carefully quote or gesticulate at any one, or other, particular individual in your replies and responses. 
It has been noticed, noted, and recorded hence your temporary exclusion, already given. 
If you wish to publicly (out)cry then it is fair to publicly respond from a moderator point of view. So I will. 
This forum is the result of a lot of hard work and time ( and money ) investment from a core of members who make up the FMG, and we will, absolutely, decide whom is to reside here and for whom their stay has out grown its welcome.

 

You sir are on the very thinnest of ice. Choose a reason to remain, whilst your agenda is discussed elsewhere. 
 

I do not appreciate, or like, your tone. It won’t be tolerated much longer I assure you. 
Residing here is a privilege, not an assumption. 
Regards, mod team. 

[Onoff]

@Sensus, there are some big egos on here and some right tenacious sorts too but isn't that's what's needed often to firstly self build and similarly to have the energy and drive to keep a forum like this going? It's not a democracy here and there is an "elite" club, live with it like most of the rank and file (like me) are happy to. No different to the real world. It is what it is. Got to be honest I skim your posts as they come across as aloof. Seems to be a bit of a "I could go into the detail but am too busy" air that's devisive at the end of the day. 

[mvincentd]

This thread is a tad mystifying.  I don’t know what I’m missing but it’s  content doesn’t seem to inform why a representative of the FMG and mod team should choose to publicly slap down an established forum member in this manner.

I don’t actually know Sensus, but I’ve been at the wrong end of his responses and found their tone superior and intolerant, so it surprises me to find myself coming to his defence.  However, an obnoxous tone doesn’t invalidate the information provided alongside.....and I do consider sensus as credible a source of information as any on the forum.  Should that information fall short of comprehensive but act as a prompt to dig further, then fine by me.

Was Nickfromwales speaking with Buildhubs voice???

 

[Onoff]

The FMG run the forum. I have no wish to get involved in that side of things. I've neither the skills or time, education (or ego maybe ? ) to do so. Some might argue over the formation process of the forum i.e by a select group but isn't that the democratic right of a group of like minded individuals? It is always, unavoidably, going to have their "stamp" on it. No different to how UK plc has been run by public school educated old boys as a feted democracy. Control is needed or you have anarchy. Try the Screwfix forum if you care to see loudmouthed  dominant voices and pure nastiness.

 

To suggest I'm being a good little boy: I've had early on, firey exchanges with members of the FMG. Relationships, virtual or otherwise take time to form. New blood can sometimes upset that balance. Only in the last week or so I've had a pm warning from the FMG over my perceived conduct on a thread. Actually I thought they were in the wrong and contributors to that thread have gone on, in my opinion, to stir the pot more with the thread's OP than anything I said. I have gone back at them btw but in private and not publicly which I feel would have been detrimental to the forum.

 

Have a think and the FMG too (I'm sure they are/will) about what this sort of exchange on someone's thread does for the forum's image. Apologies @Roz, I'm sure you weren't expecting this!

 

Time I think to tidy this thread and get back to the subject.

 

Besides most of my 12,000 posts were shameful attempts at lewd humour, asking the same question 3 times or trying to understand the answers. Then there were the posts apologising for not having done "it" how was suggested and asking how to rectify it! ?

 

I'm happy btw to plagiarise and stand on the shoulders of giants. I've seen the results of some of the builds and can only aspire to such!

 

C'mon, its Christmas!

Edited November 20, 2019 by Onoff

[ToughButterCup]

4 hours ago, mvincentd said:

[...]

However, an obnoxous tone doesn’t invalidate the information provided alongside....

[...]

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Asynchronous written communication, when drafted in haste, can all too easily lead to misunderstanding. 

 

5 hours ago, Sensus said:

[...]

A well-run forum should be a democracy, and if it isn't, it should be challenged.

[...]

 

I agree wholeheartedly.  Mods make mistakes too.

 

5 hours ago, Onoff said:

@Sensus, there are some big egos on here and some right tenacious sorts too but isn't that's what's needed often to firstly self build and similarly to have the energy and drive to keep a forum like this going? It's not a democracy here and there is an "elite" club, live with it like most of the rank and file (like me) are happy to. [...]

 

I agree entirely.

 

The Internet is associated with speed of communication, and the gift economy. But writing effective, well thought through posts is not easy. Well written posts are not drafted in haste.

Add the stressed and stressing nature of our sector, mix in a few hundred thousand pounds and you have all the ingredients necessary for miscommunication.

 

@Sensus I would much prefer you not to leave us. 

[Onoff]

21 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

Sensus I would much prefer you not to leave us.

 

+1

[dpmiller]

+2

[Oz07]

I built a standard gabled end 2 storey in 2012 with eaves vents front and back but without dry or vented ridge. Loft had condensation. Loft suffered a bit of condensation so I put 3 tile vents in at high level and it cured it. Obviously I'm not suggesting this would work in every case but my layman's brain did assume more vents was always better. How depressing that houses seem to be getting far too technical with one problem solved creates another. Shame there isn't any quick dirty rules of thumb but guessing it's all location specific. 

 

Stick around @Sensus. I've never understood why this forum can't have a lounge like others where topics can be discussed. I thought the whole point of not advertising was nobody to upset what was discussed here. Those threads getting closed down the other day fair enough had no self build in them but felt a bit like Gestapo shutting them down. 

[ToughButterCup]

I think a Mods perspective would be useful.  It's a  sometimes demanding, always thankless task done for free in our own time. Mods , almost all self builders themselves, make mistakes too.  We get  testy, piddled off, write in haste, just like everyone else. 

 

And from a native Bosch to you @Oz07, I would agree, nobody likes even a hint of ze Gestapo. (Heil Hitler! wenn Ihn Du Ihn siehst ?)

 

All of us can choose to say  or write nothing. Especially useful technique if you feel 'got at'. There is an Ignore User button. Scroll over the member's name and choose Ignore User. 

 

 

 

@Roz, apologies for the diversion.

I'm very interested in this thread because I've messed up my eaves. What have you decided to do ? .... I don't think I have the space for soffit strips 

[jamiehamy]

It would be helpful to anyone reading this thread if @Sensusyou were able to take the time to explain the rationale behind your thinking. Without it, your post is pretty worthless I'm afraid. It'll @Roz a lot if you could find the time to eloborate I'm sure. 

[Onoff]

23 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

There is an Ignore User button. Scroll over the member's name and choose Ignore User. 

 

Trouble is that you still see that they've posted but that you have chosen to ignore them and then you let yourself get dragged back in! ?

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Oz07 said:

I've never understood why this forum can't have a lounge like others where topics can be discussed.

it does ... it’s the off topic section which is purposely designated for that. 

[Onoff]

7 minutes ago, PeterW said:

it does ... it’s the off topic section which is purposely designated for that. 

 

Wasn't there an off topic topic recently removed from that section specifically for being "not building related"? I thought that was a bit odd and over zealous.

[jamiehamy]

Just now, Onoff said:

 

Wasn't there an off topic topic recently removed from that section specifically for being "not building related"? I thought that was a bit odd and over zealous.

You're allowed to discuss anything off topic you like as long as it's not Brexit or His Randy Highness Andrew... :p 

[ToughButterCup]

Folks can we keep to the topic @Roz started, please?

[Big Jimbo]

A few years ago, i was site manager on a couple of new builds of about 4000sq ft each for a client. It was something i had never done before, but asked to do it for a client. Basically, i made sure that everybody followed the drawings as best they could, and when there was an issue, gave them a quick response to enable work to continue. We had a local council building control officer, a giy from NHBC, and the clients own engineer, who was way worse than the other Two put together x 10. Both houses were built to be as airtight as they could be, and because i knew i would have to have a test at the end, i was super careful to follow the engineers drawings and detailed drawing as best i could. I can remember, that the houses were as airtight as possible, but they basically had a ventilated, cold, pitched roof on the top. The guy who did my airtests, said i was lucky, because i had made the houses almost too airtight, and that if his result had been any lower, it would have been a problem, and we would have had to introduce some ventilation to the houses.

Sorry, i do ramble. 12 months later complaints had been recieved by each of the property owners that staining, and water was coming through the upstairs ceilings. I went to the houses with a couple of others, NHBC, developers engineer, roofing contractor, and me. When we went into the loft none of us could believe the amount of actual water, not just condensation, that was in the loft, sitting on the ceilings below. There were no water services or any mechanical stuff in the loft, and the roof was checked out by the roofer from outside, and inside (We got both properties scaffolded) The roof was 100% sound, and the roof ventilation was all as specked and in place, and not blocked.

The NHBC guy, who i kept in touch with, told me that they were seeing the problem more, and more, on new build houses ! I think it eventually got solved bt adding in a considerable additional amount of ventilation in the room, and some sort of positive pressure fan attempted to continually push the damp air out of the loft. It seemed like a right bodge to me, but defo made me think about ventilation. Not that did me any good, as i dont have the brains of some on here.

[joe90]

I too came across more loft condensation issues before I retired and I am really glad my new build has a warm roof.

[Big Jimbo]

My new build super (posh shed) is even going to have a warm roof Joe90

[Roz]

?soooo , eaves / soffits.

 

@AnonymousBosch I saw your thread and was going to post my question in there but didn't want to hijack... I don't know the right etiquette!

 

So yes, warm roof. Basically it has a vent strip under the tiles, so I can block the eaves right? There will be a 30mm gap up to the ridge. 

 

Cutting a soffit well seems like a job I don't want to do, so cutting chunks of board or wood to fit the eaves gaps internally seems easier and I can glue and screw then seal around them. I dont mind the look of the eaves from underneath as they are now, and a soffit maybe isnt that fitting for a barn anyway. 

Can anyone else agree/disagree to make me feel better about making this decision?

Thanks @Sensus for already doing so, I'm not going to try and understand whats going on so will just try to stick on topic, which I admit now seems off topic, but there we go.

I cant seem to get Medite down here, so maybe marine ply would replace?

 

p.s. I should put insect mesh over the vent strip? with... gaffa tape???? Lol.

 

Asking so many questions in one post is probably a bad idea but I have a bad habit of rambling.

 

 

[Big Jimbo]

basically, what Sensus had said above, is exactly what the BRE told me. They fried my brain, but i sat there noding etc, and looking like i understood. I think i got away with it.