Zoot's Extention- progress.

[PeterW]

Ok - So if you had a section plan you would see it “should” go either : 

 

150mm Hardcore > DPM >100mm  Insulation > 100mm Final Slab

 

OR 

 

150mm Hardcore >  100mm Base  Slab > DPM >100mm  Insulation > 75-100mm Sand cement screed 

 

I think you “think” you should be getting the latter, although the builder really should have done the former as the height build up will be less. 

 

If he’s only putting 50mm in then it is roughly half the cost - the remaining cost would cover the 22mm chipboard which should be P5 spec 22mm tongue and groove, glued as a floating floor over a DPM and insulation. 

 

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Products/Building-Materials/Insulation/Insulation-Boards/c/1000272?q=%3AtopSellers%3Abrand%3AKingspan

 

Thanks Peter- we don't have wickes you see, our 2 builders yards have this "don't show the price" absurdity so countless calls etc.. drives me fkn nuts.

 

Ok that gives me a good idea what price jewsons might be. So half cost of the 100mm included in the quote.

 

So, going 50mm, do you think I have a reasonable argument to ask for the 22mm (grey top stuff) chipboard floor included? I've no idea on time/ if any gubbins to fix (purple german gooey stuff on floor above).. but surely its a fairly quick job, especially compared to a screed layer.

 

 

[PeterW]

Already responded ...

 

Jewsons don’t put prices unless you log into your account. It also depends on quantity - for example I use MKM and my last blocks were 94p as I only bought 2 packs, previously a 14 pack order cost me 89p each

 

Your builder will get different prices to you, just because he buys more. 

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ok - So if you had a section plan you would see it “should” go either : 

 

150mm Hardcore > DPM >100mm  Insulation > 100mm Final Slab

 

OR 

 

150mm Hardcore >  100mm Base  Slab > DPM >100mm  Insulation > 75-100mm Sand cement screed 

 

I think you “think” you should be getting the latter, although the builder really should have done the former as the height build up will be less. 

 

If he’s only putting 50mm in then it is roughly half the cost - the remaining cost would cover the 22mm chipboard which should be P5 spec 22mm tongue and groove, glued as a floating floor over a DPM and insulation. 

 

 

But this is why I find it weirdly 'incomplete' on the quote, now I have the knowledge of the layers involved. How can you not include a floor? how can you leave a customer with celotex to walk on & have to find another builder to come & build a floor. It just doesn't make any rational sense.. (other than I was hoodwinked, leaving a convenient bargaining position for him twds end the build).

 

Have you ever known of such a situation-?

[PeterW]

No because I think he forgot to put it in, and it should be below the concrete layer. 

[zoothorn]

25 minutes ago, PeterW said:

No because I think he forgot to put it in, and it should be below the concrete layer. 

 

Tbh Peter I doubt it, he certainly wouldn't have forgotten from an experience pov.

 

According itemised groundwork 'steps' (I bullet-pointed in a post y'day) the groundwork's been done exactly like so, bar the last on list the insulation, which we've been discussing might be able to be reduced to aid 2 inches H in this low ceiling room, hence left to last/ & when BCO confirms what dim he'll allow (which he did only 2 days ago @ 50mm + 22mm chipboard floor).

 

 

 

 

[jfb]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

but don't answer/ help/ just aggrevate instead. FFS

I am happy to help when the answer might not be obvious (see your question about concrete slab/insulation positioning) - I just feel that you should be prepared to do some of the legwork. You clearly have internet access as you are posting on here so just look up insulation prices on sites that advertise the prices.

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, jfb said:

I am happy to help when the answer might not be obvious (see your question about concrete slab/insulation positioning) - I just feel that you should be prepared to do some of the legwork. You clearly have internet access as you are posting on here so just look up insulation prices on sites that advertise the prices.

 

I explained to you I was unaware prices could be accessed for a customer if that's what I find at the only 2 places here/ you have to call/ its sunday. ok?? but you guys will have a good idea of approx cost.. so why shouldn't I ask jfb?

[MJNewton]

I can't speak for jfb but for myself I like to help people but it can be very tiring and frustrating providing help to someone that is seemingly too lazy to help themselves. You sound like a bright guy and so I am confident you are more than capable of Googling insulation prices for yourself. If not just shout and I'd be happy to help you and teach you to fish rather just hand you one I've caught. 

[andyscotland]

48 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

I explained to you I was unaware prices could be accessed for a customer if that's what I find at the only 2 places here/ you have to call/ its sunday. ok?? but you guys will have a good idea of approx cost.. so why shouldn't I ask jfb?

 

@zoothorn this site has loads of info on celotex prices and lots of other useful building related facts and figures, even on a Sunday

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=celotex+prices

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

I can't speak for jfb but for myself I like to help people but it can be very tiring and frustrating providing help to someone that is seemingly too lazy to help themselves. You sound like a bright guy and so I am confident you are more than capable of Googling insulation prices for yourself. If not just shout and I'd be happy to help you and teach you to fish rather just hand you one I've caught. 

 

 

And you exacerbate. I told I cannot access jewson's/ huw's my two build merchants' prices. Therefore it is normal to assume this is the norm.

 

If you cant help- just don't post I'm sick of wasting my time replying to sniping posts only meant to impress others at my expense.

[MJNewton]

Your attitude is disgusting. 

[zoothorn]

5 minutes ago, andyscotland said:

 

@zoothorn this site has loads of info on celotex prices and lots of other useful building related facts and figures, even on a Sunday

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=celotex+prices

 

Thanks. PeterW has already helped me on this (without trying to impress anyone too).

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

Your attitude is disgusting. 

 

No, your sniping attitude is (your reply above contains nothing more than a mild insult, followed by sarcasm you consider 'help').. & others who send me vile PM messages.

Edited November 17, 2019 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

I have two other things on my mind, if anyone can help. The first:

 

The lintels for the knock-through (2x in a stepped config) are concrete. But all others, above the two windows, above the door, above the french doors.. are a thin galv steel strip with engineering bricks on forming the lintel > then block above. This seems ok for the upstairs window because only one block course above: but the others I see a bow in the galv strip + bricks, quite evidently (to me) the weight above causing it (the lower window the most pronounced/ the most block weight above seems to confirm this).

 

I Q'd this with no2 builder (brickie) as it was being done who just muttered away agreeing, but blaming the bad steel (IE couldn't be bothered to answer/ not his concern).. then when I Q'd my main builder about it he dismissed my concern 'what? oh its fine' & walked off. I got the impression he knew what I was Q'ing, as he quickly took off instead of maybe explaining why it was ok.

 

Is this type of lintel ok? before I get the sniping replies, I realise its a Q for my BCO ideally but opinions would be useful.. if I can dismiss it as a concern I don't need to get back to my builder about it.

 

Thanks- zoot.

 

 

[Danny68]

We need photos of lintel in situ to see your concerns , very unlikely  your builder would put the wrong spec Lintel/ damaged in place when he knows  a bco would flag it up.

[Gone West]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

The lintels for the knock-through (2x in a stepped config) are concrete. But all others, above the two windows, above the door, above the french doors.. are a thin galv steel strip with engineering bricks on forming the lintel > then block above.

What roughly is the thickness of the steel. The only flat steel lintel in my old bungalow was around 1/4" thick and the opening only about 2' wide.

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, Danny68 said:

We need photos of lintel in situ to see your concerns , very unlikely  your builder would put the wrong spec Lintel/ damaged in place when he knows  a bco would flag it up.

 Quite- that's what i thought too.. gives me some reassurance/ but the bow just doesn't (nor a new concrete lintel sitting nearby laughing at me: this could've been halved & used: my only conclusion is obviously builder saving ££s).

 

Sorry my camera has finally failed/ cannot take even 1 pic now. But I think you might know the galv 'tray' type of lintel 'shell'.. maybe? so its filled with a line of dark grey bricks = a concrete lintel cheap substitute (my view on it).

 

The bow is ~ 3/4" down in the mid-point, on the lower window here: that's alot to me: so how will the window fit in without the bow seen (or fit in at all if the tolerance is maybe 1cm!?).

 

Sorry the pic is the best I can do.

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

What roughly is the thickness of the steel. The only flat steel lintel in my old bungalow was around 1/4" thick and the opening only about 2' wide.

 

Good question. All of 2-3mm Peter. [2.5mm]. The whole thing is not only bowing down 3/4" but twisting forward in the middle too, & door one nearby: both have alot of block weight above.

 

It just seems very wrong to me, a clear builder shortcut.

Edited November 17, 2019 by zoothorn

[Russell griffiths]

You will find that a concrete lintel is far cheaper than a steel one so it wasn’t put in for cheapness 

steel lintels are supposed to be propped in the centre as you build the brickwork above, when the brickwork above goes off this when full strength is achieved. 

[zoothorn]

Anyone's opinions on the 2.5mm galv steel lintel thing + bricks?

 

Also if I'm given an invoice a week ago+ (friday before last), for timber frame & groundwork.. when should I pay/ what is the 'correct' timeframe?

 

Its a bit odd as the floor insulation not done yet (last on the groundwork itemised list) plus the haggle over the agreed 50mm celotex (instead of 100mm whatever it was/ polystyrene/ poly-something? on the quote) plus 22mm board floor hasn't been finalised.

 

What I might say is Im happy to pay once the insulation & floor materials are here, should he gets the hump if I say "not paying until groundwork done.. & its not all done yet" as really I should do (but if I were to, he'll just batten the hatches & not agree the floor in place of half the 100mm poly-whatever insulation.. then we're at odds.. then he refuses this, that, generally plays up: I cannot have the stress of this).

[zoothorn]

3 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

You will find that a concrete lintel is far cheaper than a steel one so it wasn’t put in for cheapness 

steel lintels are supposed to be propped in the centre as you build the brickwork above, when the brickwork above goes off this when full strength is achieved. 

 

Russel- there is no way on god's earth this thin bit of steel is more expensive than a concrete lintel. No way. I'm happy to be proved wrong, but no way. A 1/4" thick one.. perhaps.

 

Well there was no propping then, & as a result I have a bow & a twist in both (due to the sheer weight, is confirmed by this reply then). I'll have to get onto the BCO 1st thing: I'm just not happy with the structural soundness of both these whole areas of block above now.. & if I'm not, surely the BCO won't be.

 

If it was a case of BCO telling builder to 'redo with concrete lintel'.. is a metal job + bricks feasable to remove & replace? it looks the same height & depth. My bet is builder thought BCO wouldn't appear until job finished (this is what he told me, which alarmed me a little) & as he's doing whole build at breakneck speed I bet he's got plasterers already possibly booked in for end of the week.

 

Also I notice the mortar has not gone off here too: its still pliable & a bit wet 3 days after it was done.

[PeterW]

7 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Russel- there is no way on god's earth this thin bit of steel is more expensive than a concrete lintel. No way. I'm happy to be proved wrong, but no way. A 1/4" thick one.. perhaps.

That thin bit of steel is a timber frame lintel - probably a Catnic. It will be twice the price of a concrete lintel - it’s a specialist piece of kit. 

[Declan52]

It just wasn't propped with a bit of timber when the blocks went on top. It has sagged a bit , no big deal it happens. 

You could take the lintel out now and the blocks won't go anywhere so there is no chance of it falling down due to not being structurally sound. So take a breath and let your builder work away.

[jamiehamy]

7 hours ago, zoothorn said:

 

Russel- there is no way on god's earth this thin bit of steel is more expensive than a concrete lintel. No way. I'm happy to be proved wrong, but no way. A 1/4" thick one.. perhaps.

Says the person who doesn't bother actually researching such things. Why not get off your backside and go find out for yourself. Your apparent laziness is beyond belief. 

 

I do wish you'd stop treating our members with such contempt. You're not happy to be proved wrong in anything. You know nothing about building a house but act like no one else does either. I'll keep sniping here for as long as you are so rude and arrogant. 

 

I wouldn't put up with it face to face and a forum is no different.