Zoot's Extention- GO!

[Roundtuit]

Surely someone somewhere is working from a set of plans, and not just making it up as they go along?  If not, or you can't get a copy, perhaps it's time to ask your builder to sketch out a plan with dimensions on it before doing anything else? If he knows what he's doing, it will only take him 10 minutes; you'll know what you're dealing with and what questions you need to ask, and the experts on here can help you out without having to have to guess...

Edited October 31, 2019 by Roundtuit

[Bitpipe]

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

2.35m I was promised, from FFL to underside of ceiling truss things. I'm so angry & dissapointed.

Do you have this in writing or just an oral promise?
 

Hard to take the latter to court.

[Onoff]

1) Is the top of the new roof as high as it can go under the over hanging old roof?

 

2) Is it possible to move the first floor joists up in their entirety thus increasing the downstairs headroom and reducing the upstairs step down into the new room?

 

3) Could it be the case they've erected the upstairs walls first but downstairs by mistake?

 

Without us seeing drawings we're constantly second guessing?

Edited October 31, 2019 by Onoff

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

What do your drawings say and what does your build contract say?

 

Have you paid up front for this work or are you paying in stages?

 

Not paid up front, thank god bitpipe. My drawings say 2m room H. But the groundwork was set +350mm down (a mistake, by them). I was then told "all fine, it'll be added to the lower room H.. so 2.35m I asked?.. yes.. you promise me? yes don't worry". Ok I said, tho confused & knowing I'm agreeing to a compromise: it would've been ok as Id be gaining 0.35m room H I thought.. but it was a lie to let them carry on, probably because either *he'd had the room's TF sections ordered at this point, or, he had no inclination to change from my orig plan by spending the extra he should have on the additional 0.35m adding to the walls' sections to rectify the mistake, & thought I'd fall for abc minor excuses, fibs, lying me down from 2.35m to 2.2m today.. to 2m I measure this evening after they'd gone. I'm convinced this* is the case.. in which case the whole thing WILL be 350mm short & a major situation occurs as I can't get a door in. I cannot undertsand it. I cannot understand how he expects me to pay if this is the outcome.. apart from.. cornering me on the fact my plan "didn't show adequate clarity" etc etc bllx.. tho it seemed some on here agreed precisley with this/ these cowboys, that that is the very reason for the damn mistake, me not them. This adds insult to injury I can tell you. I cannot understand how we can be on such good terms, even sitting in church together, get on very well.. & with a vg reputation in general, & good work done here before, for him to hoodwink me like this.. if I am being hoodwinked.

[zoothorn]

19 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

Surely someone somewhere is working from a set of plans, and not just making it up as they go along?  If not, or you can't get a copy, perhaps it's time to and ask your builder to sketch out a plan with dimensions on it before doing anything else? If he knows what he's doing, it will only take him 10 minutes; you'll know what you're dealing with and what questions you need to ask, and the experts on here can help you out without having to have to guess...

 

 I saw them today. They do not show the additional 350mm he promised me. It shows my original plan room H's. 2m and 2.3m with 200mm floor between. Fine & dandy if the damn groundwork wasn't dug +350mm deep. I quizzed him on this, I said I just saw the plan.. "oh no he said, it'll be 2.2m we have shims we've been given so we can alter to suit" (8x2's on side). 4x shims are indeed in.. but added to the wall sections I measured & told myself "pls pls no" the other night stacked in a pile, @ 1.88m .. it all equals 2m once insulation + final layer. At best. Possibly 1.95m or 1.90m.

 

Another convenient red-herring he threw me & I snapped up, was "oh best to have a window in there it'll be quite a dungeon as it is, we can put that in no problem just ask".. IE making me consider this to appease the fact the room's only 2m H not 2.35m H he never intended, but lied to me it would be. Clever I think now, total builder expertise vs a nice guy on his own who'se easy money. A mistake? opps.. but hey hang on, its only this guy, I think we'll just plough on & spin yarns to keep him at bay until its too late to turn back. Ie, right this very now/ this evening.

[Redoctober]

@zoothorn - it seems we are back to where we were with the concrete foundations! It was suggested by many people then that you should take more control of the situation as you are   the client. If the builder isn't working with you / or is having you over in your eyes etc. then pay him up and get someone else in to do the job. Why subject yourself to all this stress?

 

I just don't understand it! 

 

Finally, here is the plan you posted on another thread - unless I am mistaken it seems the floor to ceiling height is shown as 2000mm.

 

[zoothorn]

53 minutes ago, Onoff said:

1) Is the top of the new roof as high as it can go under the over hanging old roof?

 

2) Is it possible to move the first floor joists up in their entirety thus increasing the downstairs headroom and reducing the upstairs step down into the new room?

 

3) Could it be the case they've erected the upstairs walls first but downstairs by mistake?

 

Without us seeing drawings we're constantly second guessing?

 

1) It is on my plan. This is the only plan that has been agreed on. The one I saw today (the TF Co one evidently they're using to know which section joins to which etc) I only saw briefly, but looked as per mine. This of course completely ignores this wretched +350mm D mistake causing all the problems.. in which case, if I assume this plan same as mine (as why would it take into account an ammendment by way of an additional 350mm D that's not on the orig plans?).. then regardless of the drawings.. the new roof will innevitably be 350mm short of the plan. I suppose once we're at this point, up there he thought, I'll just fein oddness & 'oh I think we're a bit short' etc or more likely just say 'that's fine/ all normal': & if needed, use my plan with only what he told me to put on it, by way of his escape-excuse.

 

2) I have no idea, I asked this very Q a few posts before.. but if its a Q to my builder assuming there might be room to manoevre with him on it, then a big NO.. why.. because it scuppers his dead-set plan (to cover his no2's mistake, & the extra cost of it he incurs). And NO because it costs him extra if he were to agree to do it... tho it seems I have no choice but fight to the hilt on this very crux point unless I want a disaster extention.

 

3) no, the upstairs are odd one side to the other.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

19 minutes ago, Redoctober said:

@zoothorn - it seems we are back to where we were with the concrete foundations! It was suggested by many people then that you should take more control of the situation as you are   the client. If the builder isn't working with you / or is having you over in your eyes etc. then pay him up and get someone else in to do the job. Why subject yourself to all this stress?

 

I just don't understand it! 

 

Finally, here is the plan you posted on another thread - unless I am mistaken it seems the floor to ceiling height is shown as 2000mm.

 

 

 

RedOct.. its the continuation on I had dreaded, but promised would not happen. Its all very well saying 'the plan shows 2m.. you've got 2m.. so what's the fuss?' but as you know, there has been a massive error by the builders on the groundwork being made 350mm extra depth.

 

RO- I wouldn't possibly know how to 'get rid of him/ pay up, get s'one else in'.. I would need personal help/ speaking to someone & extreme care to take this course. Its almost n/a to be honest. Its a Q of working with him only. And yes now I have to step up.. tomorrow I have to.

 

Before, when I Q'd this mistake I was promised the extra would be added to the lower room H. I now know this was likely a ruse, that he knew the mistake but had no intention of rectifying it at all.

 

The only thing in my favour here, is if the roof is indeed made 350mm lower.. then I have plans to show 'not as/ wrong'.. but his bet is that once the tiles on, Id not dare to speak up.

 

Why get stressed? are you kidding?

[Onoff]

Just a small point but what you refer to as your plan is in fact a section. A plan is normally looking down on the site. A set of plans may contain a plan view, elevations and sections. 

 

Unless your "plan" and has been conveyed to the builder electronically then you're going to have a hard time going after him. As in proving what you get isn't what you agreed. 

 

It is fixable if you stop what is happening by informing him electronically of your concerns, reiterating his mistake on the depth and what you want to happen to rectify it i.e for him to rectify, by adding a lower section or building the land back up to raise everything at his cost. 

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Just a small point but what you refer to as your plan is in fact a section. A plan is normally looking down on the site. A set of plans may contain a plan view, elevations and sections. 

 

Unless your "plan" and has been conveyed to the builder electronically then you're going to have a hard time going after him. As in proving what you get isn't what you agreed. 

 

It is fixable if you stop what is happening by informing him electronically of your concerns, reiterating his mistake on the depth and what you want to happen to rectify it i.e for him to rectify, by adding a lower section or building the land back up to raise everything at his cost. 

 

It is part of the plan. I have 2 other overhead views, of course (or he wouldn't know the position where I wanted the window/ width, the door below, the width of the french doors etc etc). What you seem to be doing, is trying to prove how inept I am, & how he's done what's asked when in fact the very converse is true: he was inept (in this case/ this mistake/ he's responsible for) & I did what I was asked to do.

 

It was agreed perfectly agreeably, without neccessarily the need for electronically made plans (on site plans are them in physical form anyway).. even on this forum it was said perfectly feasable to hand draw, even books I read as to this fact too.. so I have done nothing wrong here either. You seem to want to blame anyone but the builder, just because its a hand drawn plan. Its the simplest of builds, just one idiot looks at this ^ plan too quickly on wednesday pm in his van, sees +350mm & not my clear room H mark which includes this figure, jumps out his van/ onto digger very fast & thinks +350mm.. not simply that 350mm is included. Too fast, simple as that. He had no plan in his hand, all "I know fkn best" attitude, didn't look when I put the interior FL ground mark on, & ignored me when I stated its importance "just leave me to it".  I quizzed both on this too low & I could tell they knew it was incorrect, but put the schoolboy hat on & tried to cover it up. Please don't go on about me being to blame- please.

[zoothorn]

Can anyone tell me how physically feasable it is to take off nail-gunned-on Timber Frame ceiling truss beam things? they have alu brackets all along in ~~~ shape, softwood.

[PeterW]

9 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Can anyone tell me how physically feasable it is to take off nail-gunned-on Timber Frame ceiling truss beam things? they have alu brackets all along in ~~~ shape, softwood.

5 mins with a crowbar

[zoothorn]

One other thing I need to explore, one small thing in my favour possibly.. is IF he were to build it so the knock-thru door is indeed too low to use properly & therefore does not comply with BRegs (even skimming the ceiling/ set as far twds new ceiling as possible) & its all agreed that we build it via a Build Notice on the assumption he knows the relevant BReg rules, builds it to such BR rules, & competantly etc (as is the case) & the BCO agrees its not possible to make a knock-thru door because the because the new ceiling H is too low.. & cannot sign it off as a result, is he liable to address/ recify this? if so it certainly won't be as the plan (bc the whole thing would be 350mm lower including top room, roof, ceiling et al) whether or not its lines have been drawn electronically. I have only asked him to make the knock-thru tho.. not the door that would follow. Id find it hard to think the BCO would let a builder make a ceiling, then a hole adjacent to it that could not accomodate a door of building regs min requirements.

[zoothorn]

5 minutes ago, PeterW said:

5 mins with a crowbar

 Ok that gives me some cause for hope. But then you see if this done, both the lower sections & the upper sections would all need to be remade/ rejigged at the factory, & the plan shows only what he's made (why he's done it I believe- plan gives him a get-out clause even if he promised he'dadd the 350mm onto my lower room).. but of course it doesn't take into account the +350mm groundwork mistake c*cking up every damn flaming H dimension following on. It seems like I'm stuffed whichever way I turn.

 

[PeterW]

Why would it..?

 

Take the sections off - put a pair of 8x2 on as a ring beam all the way round and stick them  back on..??

 

Or are the top sections too high now to go under the main roof eaves..?? Will need about 250mm clearance. 

[JFDIY]

Stop the job, have it out with builder, don't pay until satisfied, foolish to continue as you are, I'm getting stressed on your behalf. Honestly you need to take control.

[zoothorn]

19 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Why would it..?

 

Take the sections off - put a pair of 8x2 on as a ring beam all the way round and stick them  back on..??

 

Or are the top sections too high now to go under the main roof eaves..?? Will need about 250mm clearance. 

 

So put the pair of 8x2 on, lying flat? that's +100mm. Put on their sides? I can't see how they'd fix but if so, that's 200mm.

 

I cannot establish what you see is the idea, the 'plan' with regard to the top room H. So I don't know if at the mo my roof is 350mm short of where the plan states (this is the most logical conclusion- & tallies with the plan I saw today, basically my plan done electronically.. not taking into account the +350mm of course). If I ask what top room H.. I likely get a lie to hoodwink me by as much as 350mm like the lower room. So I have to try & work out by myself, from the pieces in front of me. This is very tricky with rectangles (I don't know which way meant to be orientated). Ive been trying for ages tonight but I cannot do it. If I do get the height of one main wall section, I then have a collared ceiling so no idea how much extra H this gives me (Ive tried but I don't know how these A frames attatch). I don't think very much at all tbh, maybe 150mm: I tried to get him to push the A croos bar as high as possible "yes will do".. then "yes we got them nice n high".. but this is another lie, they're not high at all just industry std/ I bet he didnt even speak to the TFCo on pushing them up one iota/ no intention, just spiel when I ask.

[zoothorn]

5 minutes ago, JFDIY said:

Stop the job, have it out with builder, don't pay until satisfied, foolish to continue as you are, I'm getting stressed on your behalf. Honestly you need to take control.

 

How do i stop the job with a load of TF softwood just erected getting soaked for weeks??

[JFDIY]

Half a day stopped to get you and builder re-aligned will be better than all the heartache and future problems you think are being built in, and you never know you might actually get built what you want, rather than what someone else thinks you want.

[PeterW]

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

How do i stop the job with a load of TF softwood just erected getting soaked for weeks??

It won’t matter. Timber is fine even when wet, it will dry out. Get the plans from the timber frame company, and get an idea of what the builder has planned, and make a decision. I wouldn’t put up with a ceiling too low. 

[zoothorn]

Just now, JFDIY said:

Half a day stopped to get you and builder re-aligned will be better than all the heartache and future problems you think are being built in, and you never know you might actually get built what you want, rather than what someone else thinks you want.

 

Appreciate the advice.. but how could it be so simple, with all the TF sections cut & just a few shims to help? its a huge job to take off fllor truss things/ add the 300mm risers here, then remake all the top floor walls. Half a day? morelike half a month, seriously 2 weeks minimum just to get the new sections remade.. besides he'd never ever agree. Never. He'll say its as per the plan. Its is, but for the +350mm c*ck up sodding everything up. I just don't understand how a builder can do such a mistake knowing full well how devastating it would be for the build, & just walk away.

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

It won’t matter. Timber is fine even when wet, it will dry out. Get the plans from the timber frame company, and get an idea of what the builder has planned, and make a decision. I wouldn’t put up with a ceiling too low. 

 

PeterW- the ceiling too low is the least of my problems. If the ceiling's too low, the floor 200mm above's too low. If this is too low the ceiling above it is (very very likely also) too low. If this ceiling is too low relative to the adjacent master bedroom's ceiling the knock-thru door cannot be high enough to pass BRegs, be useable bar a child's height, plus it'll all have a huge 450mm/ 3 steps drop into the new room. Plus the balcony will be too low outside too. Everything's H rests upon the depth of the lower floor: if this is way out, everythung else follows plus some.

[Cpd]

7 hours ago, Redoctober said:

 

 

You have this  drawing as your main building plan, it’s very basic with only a few key measurements, from previous threads I think the horizontal dotted lines are your existing floor levels in the existing house, however this is NOT stipulated on these plans and this should be a major concern as it seems to be the only datum point you have in regards to the height of the new extension in relation to the main house and as much as you tell us this is understood by the builder it does not seem to be what he is working to. You have also refused to transfer this mark to a wall or peg or some other point on the work site so that the builder and you have a fixed datum point that all the construction can be referred back to, this is total madness IMHO As without a fixed datum the builder could build you your extension and as long as the internal measurement are as per your drawing it’s final placement in relation to your existing house is a bit of a grey area that your going to find hard to argue he got it wrong. (I have seen lots of badly written contracts where the subsequent work is sub standard but the contractor gets away with it due to lack of information in the contract ) It’s very hard to give clear advise with so little information, why are you not posting photos so that people can see the timber frames to better understand what a solution might be, we need to see the plans the timber frame crew are working from, more information will help forum members HELP YOU better. You talk about the whole thing being 350mm to low and your builder talking about “shimming it up” my interpretation of shimming something up does not equate to lifting a whole extension up by 350mm. 
look forward to some photos of the framework so far.   

 

 

7 hours ago, Redoctober said:

 

 

 

 

[jamiehamy]

10 hours ago, zoothorn said:

 

65-70mm??!! omg I cant cope with this. I'm gonna have to pull the job/ lawyers etc. its an utter fkn disaster.

Or leave well alone, i've said this before - you are not capable of managing this job (or whatever it is you're trying to do, I'm not clear). 

 

You have no idea what you are doing, and I personally think you are taking advantage of the good nature of people on here. You prattle on about issues with little context, take up time of members, create issues out of nothing but worst if all, don't bother your backside do do your own homework. Asking how thick screed should be? Really? Surprised when someone says 70mm? Please. Why does it even matter? Its your builders job, not yours. You seem to have taken on a task of second guessing everything your builder is doing. I'm amazed they haven't walked off your site.

Your drawings are pretty much kids sketches and you wonder why things appear not clear? 

 

Your comment about 'pulling the job/lawyers' - either I've misunderstood the joke or you're taking the micky. 

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

19 minutes ago, Cpd said:

 

You have this  drawing as your main building plan, it’s very basic with only a few key measurements, from previous threads I think the horizontal dotted lines are your existing floor levels in the existing house, however this is NOT stipulated on these plans and this should be a major concern as it seems to be the only datum point you have in regards to the height of the new extension in relation to the main house and as much as you tell us this is understood by the builder it does not seem to be what he is working to. You have also refused to transfer this mark to a wall or peg or some other point on the work site so that the builder and you have a fixed datum point that all the construction can be referred back to, this is total madness IMHO As without a fixed datum the builder could build you your extension and as long as the internal measurement are as per your drawing it’s final placement in relation to your existing house is a bit of a grey area that your going to find hard to argue he got it wrong. (I have seen lots of badly written contracts where the subsequent work is sub standard but the contractor gets away with it due to lack of information in the contract ) It’s very hard to give clear advise with so little information, why are you not posting photos so that people can see the timber frames to better understand what a solution might be, we need to see the plans the timber frame crew are working from, more information will help forum members HELP YOU better. You talk about the whole thing being 350mm to low and your builder talking about “shimming it up” my interpretation of shimming something up does not equate to lifting a whole extension up by 350mm. 
look forward to some photos of the framework so far.   

 

 

 

 

 

  I agree with your point that shimming it up does not equate to lifting whole thing up 350mm. But that's all I agree with. I will not post photos as it might be an easy way to be seen by any of the 5 guys on site. At the moment its a box, set down into a trench. The trench I didn't want/ ask/ or put on the plan for. The ceiling/ floor height is 350mm off what it should be on the plan, as is the floor 2000mm below it. That's just fact, that's not to be 'interpreted' whatsoever, absolutely not.

 

Unless its agreed that the fact its 350mm is due solely to a mistake, not by me, but so evidently & clearly by my builder's no2.. then I can't accept the advise. Ive given clear proof of this fact. Haste. Nothing but this as cause. If you're too hasty, you might interpret my extremely clear 350mm figure which -is- included in the 2000mm room height. Its so clear that only haste could be reason as to interpreting this abundantly clear figure IS included, and NOT excluded from the 2000mm figure. Anyone can see this. If you cannot agree this is a builder's mistake, I can only think that just the fact that I do not have the experience you do, is cause for you to side with these builders and against me.