Big Jimbo Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 The builder must be a welsh saint. If he ain't he should be 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted November 2, 2019 Author Share Posted November 2, 2019 1 minute ago, PeterW said: No - yet again you’re wrong .... This is because it all started 350mm too low, and you drew a collar truss that you thought could be manufactured and what has been made is correct. Lifting it 200mm would mean the top rafters would need to be deeper and it wouldn’t fit under the existing roof. The centre offset is because the extension is not central to the back of the house. To fix that, they have done the correct thing, and dropped one side to make it work otherwise the ridges wouldn’t line up, and it would look shite ... So, your builder and the timber frame company have both done a pretty good job of fixing this. Suggesting to your builder on Monday morning he is wrong and you’ve lost 200mm And want it back may well result in you finding a length of 200x50 (or 8x2...) inserted where the sun doesn’t shine ... We do not agree then. It gets stranger. Lifting the collar truss 200mm (& leaving the outer beams exactly as they are) is not of any consequence. Lifting it gives me the 20cm height the collared ceiling should be doing according to the plan. At the moment its giving me 0cm additional height. If there was any issue with the plan I drew (based on 1/3rd rule.. IE the collar max 1/3rd up, but no more than this) then my builder would have said. On the contrary he said the plan is very good a few times. Here is the very crux point I was striving for: at least we're on board as to where Ive been on about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Your ceiling height is 2300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Zoot the hoot is pulling our plonkers boys. Peter has even done him a clear drawing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted November 2, 2019 Author Share Posted November 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, PeterW said: No - yet again you’re wrong .... This is because it all started 350mm too low, and you drew a collar truss that you thought could be manufactured and what has been made is correct. Lifting it 200mm would mean the top rafters would need to be deeper and it wouldn’t fit under the existing roof. The centre offset is because the extension is not central to the back of the house. To fix that, they have done the correct thing, and dropped one side to make it work otherwise the ridges wouldn’t line up, and it would look shite ... So, your builder and the timber frame company have both done a pretty good job of fixing this. Suggesting to your builder on Monday morning he is wrong and you’ve lost 200mm And want it back may well result in you finding a length of 200x50 (or 8x2...) inserted where the sun doesn’t shine ... It did -not- start 350mm too low Peter. This 350mm is the end (the lowest) consequence of this collar being made 200mm too low. I know perfectly well why one side is offset. Its perfectly clear from the drawing I did months ago (why on earth you'd say this.. is unbelievable) its offset, therefore an offset truss would be needed. I have never suggested I am going tom do anything of the sort on monday. I might have said I don't understand (as I still do not.. if you now are back disagreeing with me, but before saying 'I'll have two sloping sides/ it'll all be fine/ your extra room H will happen' which I spent ages explaining why this was an impossibility- more bizarreness) but I need to be in the best position to counter what he might say, if, I still do not understand. At the moment I'm totally confused. Nothing makes sense, apart from it all having shifted down 20cm, which a definite/ this is undeniable/ you just cannot say this is not true. But you will. Asumption, after assumption. WHY?????????????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Lifting the collar truss 200mm (& leaving the outer beams exactly as they are) is not of any consequence. YES IT DOES..!!!! The basic laws of engineering mean you can’t do it ..!!!! To lift the collar, you need to ensure that the rafters (outer beams) are sufficiently strong enough to resist the bending motion exerted from the weight of the roof. As you want maximum height and want to stay below the ridge line and follow the existing cottage roof line mean that the collar cannot go any higher as the outer beams (rafters) would need to be deeper. As the walls are already low, you would basically lose height at the walls to gain a smaller height increase in the middle. So whilst your builder has said your sketch is good, the timber frame company who have engineered your frame to meet building regulations and also decent safety regulations have actually done it correctly and designed it using engineering principles, not information from the internet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted November 2, 2019 Author Share Posted November 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: Zoot the hoot is pulling our plonkers boys. Peter has even done him a clear drawing. Yes & it coincides with what Ive been saying for fkn ages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, zoothorn said: did -not- start 350mm too low Peter. This 350mm is the end (the lowest) consequence of this collar being made 200mm too low. @zoothorn you are now taking the piss and I’ve had enough. This is your first post on the thread Note your words ... Groundworks have been done (+350mm too deep) So your last statement about it being top down lower by 20cm is wrong. You know you started too low, but actually it’s done you a favour. 8 minutes ago, zoothorn said: know perfectly well why one side is offset. Its perfectly clear from the drawing I did months ago (why on earth you'd say this.. is unbelievable) its offset, therefore an offset truss would be needed. Thats bollocks too - you’ve queried why it’s the shape it is from the point you posted the picture ..! In the words of the great Duncan Bannatyne - I’m out ..! Enjoy the rest of your build. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted November 2, 2019 Author Share Posted November 2, 2019 1 minute ago, PeterW said: YES IT DOES..!!!! The basic laws of engineering mean you can’t do it ..!!!! To lift the collar, you need to ensure that the rafters (outer beams) are sufficiently strong enough to resist the bending motion exerted from the weight of the roof. As you want maximum height and want to stay below the ridge line and follow the existing cottage roof line mean that the collar cannot go any higher as the outer beams (rafters) would need to be deeper. As the walls are already low, you would basically lose height at the walls to gain a smaller height increase in the middle. So whilst your builder has said your sketch is good, the timber frame company who have engineered your frame to meet building regulations and also decent safety regulations have actually done it correctly and designed it using engineering principles, not information from the internet. Are you a Timber Frame expert tho? the clip shown to me says collar 1/3rd up max, & this is pro info is it not? All the general www info says consistantly collar 1/3rd up max too. But you disagree so wholeheartedly- I find this odd. The way these trusses are made, of softwood just pinned together with thin alu spiked brackets, no nails or glue too.. tell me they are -not- highly engineered huge load-bearing designs, but with a total of all of 7.. rather each a lighter design.. & moving the collar up just 20cm would be of no consequence. I believe my builder just oversaw/ forgot this small detail. I'm happy to be proved wrong, as I said, but with due respect Peter the TF Co can only do this as I still have huge doubts (eg as we still disagree about the ground 350mm figure, which is clearly followed on from this new collar level.. but you can't agree even with this). I will call them on monday & trace where & why these trusses are not as I planned. Can you at thev least though, agree that the lower ceiling H than I anticipated, that is on the plan, causes the knock-thru door to be extremely problematic with only 1860mm H from my existing bedroom floor up to the new adjacent ceiling height. Can you at the least agree with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Are you a Timber Frame expert tho? the clip shown to me says collar 1/3rd up max, & this is pro info is it not? All the general www info says consistantly collar 1/3rd up max too. But you disagree so wholeheartedly- I find this odd. The way these trusses are made, of softwood just pinned together with thin alu spiked brackets, no nails or glue too.. tell me they are -not- highly engineered huge load-bearing designs, but with a total of all of 7.. rather each a lighter design.. & moving the collar up just 20cm would be of no consequence. I believe my builder just oversaw/ forgot this small detail. I'm happy to be proved wrong, as I said, but with due respect Peter the TF Co can only do this as I still have huge doubts (eg as we still disagree about the ground 350mm figure, which is clearly followed on from this new collar level.. but you can't agree even with this). I will call them on monday & trace where & why these trusses are not as I planned. Can you at thev least though, agree that the lower ceiling H than I anticipated, that is on the plan, causes the knock-thru door to be extremely problematic with only 1860mm H from my existing bedroom floor up to the new adjacent ceiling height. Can you at the least agree with this? No Zoot. nobody is going to agree with you, and you are not going to agree with anybody. Like Peter, and Duncan. I'm out. Bye bye 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted November 2, 2019 Author Share Posted November 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, PeterW said: @zoothorn you are now taking the piss and I’ve had enough. This is your first post on the thread Note your words ... Groundworks have been done (+350mm too deep) So your last statement about it being top down lower by 20cm is wrong. You know you started too low, but actually it’s done you a favour. Thats bollocks too - you’ve queried why it’s the shape it is from the point you posted the picture ..! In the words of the great Duncan Bannatyne - I’m out ..! Enjoy the rest of your build. Utter nonsense. All of it. I knew clear as a bell why its the odd shape it is having drawn it so many times!! for goodness sake. A simple shape, a child could know. I knew exactkly where it would sit, just as your sketch, aoens ago but to me none of you seemed to know. Infuriating Peter. I was totally wrong about why I thought the groundwork was at the low position it was.. because I was convinced a week ago it was a mistake by no2 builder who did the groundwork. Convinced. I admit. Why? because no communication as to why from my builder. Nothing. Its no wonder I go sdearching for answers. But now I know the trusses have not been made as I thought, regardless of whether its how they have to be, its clear that this is the -better- reason (albeit the 200mm & 350mm still don't tally annoyingly). I can change opinion during a week if I find a better cause to an issue. I didn't hear anyone say "maybe its due to the top ceiling position is different/ check this, as builders work from the top down?". No-one. Go on show me where I queried why its the shape it is?! I've known all along where it goes/ there's no reason for me to question it! dreadful nonsense. If I trawl out where you said there'd be two sloping sides to the ceiling.. you'll look the fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Who thinks it's time to ban Zoot. Start you voting folks 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Play nicely gentlemen, no personal insults. This thread is being watched., 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bissoejosh Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, zoothorn said: Utter nonsense. All of it. I knew clear as a bell why its the odd shape it is having drawn it so many times!! for goodness sake. A simple shape, a child could know. I knew exactkly where it would sit, just as your sketch, aoens ago but to me none of you seemed to know. Infuriating Peter. Just stop. Edited November 3, 2019 by bissoejosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Are you a Timber Frame expert tho? the clip shown to me says collar 1/3rd up max, & this is pro info is it not? All the general www info says consistantly collar 1/3rd up max too. But you disagree so wholeheartedly- I find this odd. No, I’m an engineer who ignores 98% of the shite that people put on YouTube. It’s not even a UK video ..!! It’s about as “pro info” as the back of a beer mat. 1/3rd up is irrelevant unless you know all of the forces acting on the frame, and the timber being used. For example, a collar tie of 6x2 over a 8m span, 1/3rd up would fail if the rafters were 8x2 because the tensile force would split the timber on the bolts. But that’s based on me knowing all the information - which the timber frame company does, and you don’t hence why it’s not built to your plans but built to an engineered design. 3 minutes ago, zoothorn said: I didn't hear anyone say "maybe its due to the top ceiling position is different/ check this, as builders work from the top down?". No-one. No they didn’t, as per your post about measuring up, the TF company came after the founds were finished - so again, don’t change the story as the 200mm is irrelevant. I’ll make a suggestion - let the builder finish the build, and don’t question anything else. You’ll get a usable extension that he has actually built that works..! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EverHopefull Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Relieved this is only a two storey extension! It's exhausting.... 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted November 2, 2019 Author Share Posted November 2, 2019 42 minutes ago, jamiehamy said: Your ceiling height is 2300. Yup you say this now. I measured it & I stated this, I've know since yesterday & tried to explain it.. but everyone was suggesting there was extra to go on, because of the two sloped sides. I've been trying & trying to explain not so. Now you all agree, with sketches too, but say you don't & fire vitriol at me. Absolutely bizarre. Quite clearly a big miscommunication that's all, but I do not like the meanness aimed towards me from you all- it is bullying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted November 2, 2019 Author Share Posted November 2, 2019 1 minute ago, EverHopefull said: Relieved this is only a two storey extension! It's exhausting.... Who is this gatecrasher? have you got a ticket?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted November 2, 2019 Author Share Posted November 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, PeterW said: No, I’m an engineer who ignores 98% of the shite that people put on YouTube. It’s not even a UK video ..!! It’s about as “pro info” as the back of a beer mat. 1/3rd up is irrelevant unless you know all of the forces acting on the frame, and the timber being used. For example, a collar tie of 6x2 over a 8m span, 1/3rd up would fail if the rafters were 8x2 because the tensile force would split the timber on the bolts. But that’s based on me knowing all the information - which the timber frame company does, and you don’t hence why it’s not built to your plans but built to an engineered design. No they didn’t, as per your post about measuring up, the TF company came after the founds were finished - so again, don’t change the story as the 200mm is irrelevant. I’ll make a suggestion - let the builder finish the build, and don’t question anything else. You’ll get a usable extension that he has actually built that works..! Ok Peter thanks, that's much more civilised.. & so I read & take in more. I don't doubt this engineering info is correct, it sounds plausible. I'll call the Co monday. The TF Co came monday.. ok good point, that's true/ I see what you mean. But I was told they came monday by builder I suspected telling me fibs at the time (thinking he prolly had these made ready for a week before). Is this the usual way TF builds go then, the Co rep always comes on site after the groundwork, never during or even before it? Alot of this is my builder simply not communicating. Even no2 says to contact him "its smoke signals" rolling his eyes. So I don't mind what you think but you see I'm not to blame for this massive confusion. Like the miscommunication evidently here last few hrs, communication is essential. I told him & was firm with him this must change, I put on my project mngr tiara & waved my little wand under his grizzled chin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 I have to say @zoothorn that if your builder does not give you a smack in the mouth he is a saint. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 7 hours ago, zoothorn said: Quite clearly a big miscommunication that's all, but I do not like the meanness aimed towards me from you all- it is bullying. Good luck with the rest of your build. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 Crumbs ! Makes discussions with the EU look easy . What an earth is going to happen when we get to plumbing , electrics etc. Etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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