What ya building.

[ProDave]

36 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Because:

1. I disliked the upfront costs with engineered foundations. I am frequently astonished at the £50k sums spent just to get to DPC when MMCs are used.
2. I must use specific facing bricks in my village location which limits MMC options.
3. At the end of the day I would not be content imagining my timber frame being slowly digested by microbes in our British climate particularly at my damp plot.
4. I believe that climate alarmism is 90% political fraud hence I feel no moral compulsion to pursue eco concepts.
5. Brick & block tolerates a slow ££ burn mortgage-free approach to self build whereas most MMCs need to be weather tight before subject to a full winter.
6. Brick & block is compatible with an endeveavour to do as much hands-on as possible starting with very little competence at the outset. 

1: the foundations for my TF cost £10K

2: It is quite normal to build with TF and use brick or block as the outer wall so your particular bricks would be no problem.

3: The TF should not get digested by microbes, not sure where you got that from. West coast of Scotland has plenty of TF houses, I think that qualifies as "damp"

4: not for this thread.

5: My TF sat the first winter bare, I wrapped in DPM over the west facing wall that gets most weather.

6: You can build TF yourself. A guy near here stick built his frame over 2 years himself. See 3:

 

P.S I am not saying you should all build with TF. I am just saying there is nothing wrong with it. You can build good and bad houses with just about any construction method.

[Jeremy Harris]

You can pretty much build a house that looks any way you wish using any build method, as final appearance is pretty much construction method agnostic.  If you want a specific brick finish on an ICF house built in a conservation area, then it's easy enough to achieve, just as easy as having the same brick finish on a timber frame, or on an externally insulated single skin block wall build.

 

Same goes for a rendered finish, timber cladding or whatever, doesn't matter what the walls are built from, really.

 

The most critical factors, aside from personal preference, will probably be the nature of the site and the budget, with perhaps ease of construction by someone with little or no experience being another factor for some.  Some build methods require a higher skill level than others, so cost can be impacted by how much time a self-builder has to learn new skills, perhaps. 

 

The amount of available internal space for a given footprint may well be a factor on a tight site, where minimising wall thickness, yet still meeting the required thermal performance, might make all the difference to the way the house feels when finished.  There's no doubt that overall wall thickness can be reduced with MMC, or possibly EWI over single skin block construction, given that the cavity width needed to comply with BRs for a conventional cavity wall build up makes for a wall around 350mm thick (it's pretty hard to meet Part L with less than about a 150mm cavity, I believe).  Something like a 140mm SIPS panel wall, with a brick outer skin, may well be around 75mm or so thinner than block and brick, for example.

[Ferdinand]

Nice to see that the number of responses is higher than the last survey ==> growth of community.

 

The missing options are "earth sheltered" and "Jenga".

[Jeremy Harris]

Pity we don't seem to have anyone building an earth sheltered house.  I've always been fascinated by the idea of building one.

[Tin Soldier]

What does my SIPS build count as, Timber Frame?

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, Tin Soldier said:

What does my SIPS build count as, Timber Frame?

 

 

I'd guess so, as the only structural elements in it are the timber bits.

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

Pity we don't seem to have anyone building an earth sheltered house.  I've always been fascinated by the idea of building one.

 

 

Two weeks ago I had a personal letter from the local planning department advising me of an application to build such a property about 60 meters away. We will hardly be aware of its presence once build because it fits into the natural gradient so well. The part of the building we will see is a stone clad tower that is designed to resemble a turret from the castle ruins not far away.

 

The owner of the plot is a local builder who has developed traditional brick ans block properties in the past.

[joe90]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Pity we don't seem to have anyone building an earth sheltered house.  I've always been fascinated by the idea of building one.

 

I don’t fancy filling tyres and using a hammer to compress it all ?

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, joe90 said:

 

I don’t fancy filling tyres and using a hammer to compress it all ?

 

When I looked into earth sheltered houses, most seem to use basement construction techniques, with waterproof concrete floor, walls and roof.  I always liked the idea of an atrium style design, with either an open courtyard in the centre, or a glazed dome, like Mole Manor, to let lots of light down into the middle of the house.

[ToughButterCup]

3 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

It has become a thread about internal polling but it was originally a thread about advice given to the OP's friend regarding the popularity of self build methods of construction.

 

... and a request for a BH poll. 

In terms relevant to your discipline, might this not be one of those Multi-Arm Bandit problems? Or do I stretch Epsilon's Greed a bit far? ?

[PeterW]

23 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

When I looked into earth sheltered houses, most seem to use basement construction techniques, with waterproof concrete floor, walls and roof.  I always liked the idea of an atrium style design, with either an open courtyard in the centre, or a glazed dome, like Mole Manor, to let lots of light down into the middle of the house.

 

About 5 years ago I nearly bought a disused water tank and wanted to chop into the top very similar - downside was insulation was going to be horrendous and since I watched last weeks Grand Designs I’m so glad I didn’t ..!!

[Construction Channel]

4 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Because:

1. I disliked the upfront costs with engineered foundations. I am frequently astonished at the £50k sums spent just to get to DPC when MMCs are used.
2. I must use specific facing bricks in my village location which limits MMC options.
3. At the end of the day I would not be content imagining my timber frame being slowly digested by microbes in our British climate particularly at my damp plot.
4. I believe that climate alarmism is 90% political fraud hence I feel no moral compulsion to pursue eco concepts.
5. Brick & block tolerates a slow ££ burn mortgage-free approach to self build whereas most MMCs need to be weather tight before subject to a full winter.
6. Brick & block is compatible with an endeveavour to do as much hands-on as possible starting with very little competence at the outset. 

I'm sorry but most of that is wrong in so many ways. 

 

There is no reason that foundations would be any different for TF over brick. 

Foundations are technically just a gap filler to get down to stable ground. 

 

TF with a brick skin is what I built because it's maintenance free outside and allowed me an almost normal wall thickness and allowed me to easily exceed regs. 

 

A TF being digested by microbes will only happen if you build it badly. 

 

Climate change smimate change. Its all about how much you want to spend up front/ on bills indefinitely 

 

Weather tight before winter is rubbish. You just need to cover it up. It took me well over a year to get mine water tight

 

TF is a lot easier for amateurs than brick and block. Any idiot can cut sticks the same length and point a nail gun at them. Laying bricks is a skill 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

7 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

About 5 years ago I nearly bought a disused water tank and wanted to chop into the top very similar - downside was insulation was going to be horrendous and since I watched last weeks Grand Designs I’m so glad I didn’t ..!!

 

 

Watching that episode of GD did remind me of the plans I dreamt up of doing something similar.  I think the way I might have tackled that water tank conversion would have been to not remove the whole roof, just a central section as a light well, dig away the earth bunds surrounding the walls, chuck in around 300mm of EPS hard against the concrete of the walls and roof, then re-instate the earth both around the closed sides and on the roof.  A fair bit of earth shifting, but probably not massive in the overall scheme of things, given that there would have been no foundation work, or main structure work, probably just some steels to support the cut edge of the roof in the middle.

[MrMagic]

4 hours ago, JSHarris said:

just a central section as a light well

 

This is exactly what they are doing near me with a reservoir conversion - although this one is a beautiful victorian brick arched one.

 

https://planningpublicaccess.southdowns.gov.uk/online-applications/ - search for - SDNP/15/05626/FUL and click the three 'site plan' docs.

[jack]

16 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Pity we don't seem to have anyone building an earth sheltered house.  I've always been fascinated by the idea of building one.

 

At the very start of our self-build journey I got slightly obsessed with straw-bale houses. I actually don't think the old-fashioned version is a great idea in our damp climate (although it can definitely be done with careful detailing), but there are panelised versions that apparently work well. A school not far from us used one version: https://www.modcell.com/projects/weydon-secondary-school/

 

It all got a bit too hard in the end, so we went with a more conventional construction.

[PeterW]

I have all the straw bale books I could lay my hands on as I really considered this a few years ago. I remember seeing the GD though where they used them internally and thinking I was happy I hadn’t ..!! 

[ProDave]

I wired a "straw bale" house once.  In reality it was a timber frame, based on a Larsen Truss with the bales between the inner and outer part of the Larsen  Truss providing the insulation.

 

My conclusion, you needed a lot thicker walls to get the same U value as something like Earthwool or Celulose, you needed a good autumn to get the straw in and baled all nice and dry, then a good barn to store the bales and keep them dry until they go into the house, and the only "benefit" was your smug feeling at "being green"

[joe90]

Yup, I wanted straw bale build once as well, did all the research and I went on two builds in Pembrokeshire as a volunteer for a week and enjoyed it very much but it was very labour intensive (and I am getting on a bit?) Very happy with our brick “cottage”.

[Ferdinand]

14 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

About 5 years ago I nearly bought a disused water tank and wanted to chop into the top very similar - downside was insulation was going to be horrendous and since I watched last weeks Grand Designs I’m so glad I didn’t ..!!

 

That's quite Roman.

 

The 'Pyramid House' at the Homeworld Exhibition in MK in 1981 was like that with a single space in the middle (iirc).

 

Ditto houses which are centred round a conservatory. 

 

F

[epsilonGreedy]

17 hours ago, ProDave said:

1: the foundations for my TF cost £10K

 

 

My hunch is that there is an association between modern build methods and expensive foundations though the cause for this association is unclear. It might be psychological i.e. those who choose TF are taking a risk adverse approach to self-build and that same outlook will prompt them to also eliminate risk when creating of the foundations.As a trade pro perhaps your outlook was closer to brick & block builder i.e. "let's just get the digger in and I will deal with whatever is encountered".

 

Another possibility is that if the foundations and TF structure are created by different businesses there could be tendency to over specification to limit commercial liability.

 

Finally there is the Grand Designs influence where self builders take on difficult sites that pro builders would not consider.

 

I do not have a ready made sum for my footings but from memory for an 70m2 l-shaped footprint is was:

 

£0 Site clearance (clean regularly mowed ex. pony paddock with small gradient)

£0 DIY set out.

£450 foundation dig (man & son team plus their equipment)

£2000 semi trench fill

£100 pour day labour

£1200 2 courses of footing blocks labour and material)

 

Anyhow my general point is that TF front loads the spending profile when the kit is manufactured offsite and erected in two weeks by a pro team. 

 

18 hours ago, ProDave said:

2: It is quite normal to build with TF and use brick or block as the outer wall so your particular bricks would be no problem.

 

 

My understanding is that given the starting point of a 300mm deep wall, if 100mm is squandered in thermally ineffective facing bricks then allowing for an air gap that does not leave enough depth for an effective TF by modern standards.

 

18 hours ago, ProDave said:

6: You can build TF yourself. A guy near here stick built his frame over 2 years himself. See 3:

 

 

Ok but since MMCs are generally defined as requiring some degree of offsite modular construction, onsite stick build does not really count and must be a tiny fraction of TF builds. Slow diyMax onsite brick & block is more common.

[PeterW]

5 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

My understanding is that given the starting point of a 300mm deep wall, if 100mm is squandered in thermally ineffective facing bricks then allowing for an air gap that does not leave enough depth for an effective TF by modern standards.

 

140mm stud with full filled PIR, 15mm OSB and 25mm cavity will out perform a 100/100/100 standard build that will still need the same 37.5mm insulated plasterboard and will come in much better thermally and from an increased air tightness. 

[Jeremy Harris]

25 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

My hunch is that there is an association between modern build methods and expensive foundations though the cause for this association is unclear. It might be psychological i.e. those who choose TF are taking a risk adverse approach to self-build and that same outlook will prompt them to also eliminate risk when creating of the foundations.As a trade pro perhaps your outlook was closer to brick & block builder i.e. "let's just get the digger in and I will deal with whatever is encountered".

 

Another possibility is that if the foundations and TF structure are created by different businesses there could be tendency to over specification to limit commercial liability.

 

Finally there is the Grand Designs influence where self builders take on difficult sites that pro builders would not consider.

 

I do not have a ready made sum for my footings but from memory for an 70m2 l-shaped footprint is was:

 

£0 Site clearance (clean regularly mowed ex. pony paddock with small gradient)

£0 DIY set out.

£450 foundation dig (man & son team plus their equipment)

£2000 semi trench fill

£100 pour day labour

£1200 2 courses of footing blocks labour and material)

 

Anyhow my general point is that TF front loads the spending profile when the kit is manufactured offsite and erected in two weeks by a pro team. 

 

 

My understanding is that given the starting point of a 300mm deep wall, if 100mm is squandered in thermally ineffective facing bricks then allowing for an air gap that does not leave enough depth for an effective TF by modern standards.

 

 

Ok but since MMCs are generally defined as requiring some degree of offsite modular construction, onsite stick build does not really count and must be a tiny fraction of TF builds. Slow diyMax onsite brick & block is more common.

 

 

When comparing foundations it's well worth comparing on a like for like basis, though.  For example, our "foundations" also cost around £10k, however, included in that was:

 

- 200mm of compacted stone, blinded and levelled with ~50mm of grit

- 300mm of under floor insulation

- 200mm of peripheral insulation

- DPM

- Steel reinforced concrete ring beam and slab

- underfloor heating pipes

- power floated finished internal floor, ready to lay flooring

 

To compare our foundation system with a block an beam system the cost of the floor beams and block, insulation,  screed and ground floor heating system would need to be  included.  I suspect that the cost difference between the two may not be that great if a proper comparison was undertaken.

 

[epsilonGreedy]

15 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

When comparing foundations it's well worth comparing on a like for like basis, though.  For example, our "foundations" also cost around £10k, however, included in that was:

 

 

I thought your foundation costs were much higher and you had adjusted your absolute m2 build cost downwards to a lower headline figure because your plot cost was discounted in view of the problems?

 

Perhaps the better question for comparison is total project spend including design, surveys, engineering, site access prep, historical digs, newt hunting, services, crane hire, spoil disposal and actual construction to get to dpc.

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by epsilonGreedy

[PeterW]

8 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Perhaps the better question for comparison is total project spend including design, surveys, engineering, site access prep, historical digs, newt hunting, services, crane hire, spoil disposal and actual construction to get to dpc.

 

90% of those aren’t just for foundations though...??

 

Total cost per square metre excluding plot is probably still the best measure.  

[Jeremy Harris]

27 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I thought your foundation costs were much higher and you had adjusted your absolute m2 build cost downwards to a lower headline figure because your plot cost was discounted in view of the problems?

 

 

 

No, I had three quotes for a passive slab foundation system, one from Isoquick, one from Kore and one from Supergrund.  The spread of prices between the three was around £500 either side of £10k.

 

Our plot price was discounted because there was no mains water or drainage accessible for a reasonable price.  Mains water was going to cost around £24k, mains drainage around £14k, plus the cost of a pump station.  Both would have entailed digging up the lane and preventing access to three or four houses for a time, which may well have incurred additional cost.

 

What's the cost of your block and beam, floor insulation, finished floor screed and ground floor heating system, as we can just add that to the costs you've given for the footings and compare on a like-for-like basis?