Adam Smith

Easiest, Simplest, Cheapest Type Of Flooring

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I have a Victorian terraced house in London W4 and I want to fill in the L shape of the ground floor so as to create an extension/conservatory.  I want to emphasise the conservatory aspect so that I don’t have to apply for planning permission and building control, but I want to have a good, solid floor with insulation and under floor heating.  The area to be filled in is 5 m long by 2 m wide with solid foundations to either side. The ground is 250 mm below the floor level inside the house. At the moment there is an inspection chamber for the drain,  but I want to get rid of this and have a rodding eye outside the new conservatory. I would like to be able to do it all myself. What is the cheapest, least hassle way of doing it? Thanks.

4DBC1178-BC5F-4729-BED1-EE4826A9FE9D.jpeg

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First, have you talked to your neighbour about joining onto his new wall?  His extension looks to be still under construction.  Is that wall built on the party line, or set back his side of it so as to be entirely inside his boundarry?

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It might be worth checking the regs. I have a vague memory that a conservatory isn’t allowed to have permanent heating in it. 

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Solid sub base (excavate and MOT if req), sand blinding, DPM, Celotex, polythene, heating pipes clipped down, reinforced screed.

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1 hour ago, ProDave said:

First, have you talked to your neighbour about joining onto his new wall?  His extension looks to be still under construction.  Is that wall built on the party line, or set back his side of it so as to be entirely inside his boundarry?

 

The wall is on the Boundry and it is agreed that either side can share it.

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1 hour ago, Nick1c said:

It might be worth checking the regs. I have a vague memory that a conservatory isn’t allowed to have permanent heating in it. 

 

 I don’t know if this is true, but it would be impossible to enforce. I could connect under floor heating and disconnected it at will. There is no way a building inspector would even know that it’s there .

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4 minutes ago, Adam Smith said:

 

 I don’t know if this is true, but it would be impossible to enforce. I could connect under floor heating and disconnected it at will. There is no way a building inspector would even know that it’s there .

 

Is that what is known as an invisible hand? 😆

 

Sorry, I’ll get back in my box now as I can offer no practical advice 🤷‍♂️

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29 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Solid sub base (excavate and MOT if req), sand blinding, DPM, Celotex, polythene, heating pipes clipped down, reinforced screed.

 Thanks. Could you elaborate on this first bit – what is MOT? Are you saying a hard-core with a sand blinding  and the only concrete is the screed on the top? Could I do this all myself? Could they pump the screed from the front to the back of the house? 

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2 minutes ago, daiking said:

Is that what is known as an invisible hand?

Nice one, have you been to Milton Keynes,

 

Sorry Adam, sure you have heard them all before.

And welcome.

3 minutes ago, Adam Smith said:

what is MOT

It is a type of sub base.  I have no idea what it stands for. Think it is a type of gravel/rubble/stone/aggregate.

  One for the abbreviations thread, it may be in there.

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I think you need PP anyway, as you are within 2m of a boundary.

 

And I don't think it will be a "conservatory":

 

"In the UK the legal definition of a conservatory is that it is a building with at least 50% side walls and 75% roof area with translucent glass or polycarbonate glazing"

https://www.eygwindows.co.uk/lifestyle-blog/do-you-need-planning-permission-for-a-conservatory

 

You are already under 50%, unless you make a glass wall facing his bricks.

 

Sorry to post that.

 

Given PP requirement, I think I would be looking at a real roof spanning from your existing wall to the neighbour (and coming to an agreement whilst his roof is still in bits, with you giving him a small benefit - once it is finished it will be much more difficult), then considering how to link to the existing,

 

A full width room, or with perforations in the existing wall, will be much more attractive, and - given Chiswick (I lived in Grove Park for a couple of years) - you should get it back on the value. 

 

Things that matter are light to your middle room, and maintainability of whatever your build, and new drains and waterhandling (and maintenance thereof). It will be easy to create a nightmare.

 

One thing you have not said is whether you want something warm or cool. If it looks like a conservatory you will not get the benefit on valuations.

 

F

Edited by Ferdinand

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Do you have a picture of the drain with the lid off, it could be more involved than you think to move it, depends what is connecting to it. 

 

Why not not bring your front wall over to meet the new wall, and remove the old side wall of your kitchen and make it all one room. 

What sort of budget do you have. 

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12 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

I think you need PP anyway, as you are within 2m of a boundary.

 

And I don't think it will be a "conservatory":

 

"In the UK the legal definition of a conservatory is that it is a building with at least 50% side walls and 75% roof area with translucent glass or polycarbonate glazing"

https://www.eygwindows.co.uk/lifestyle-blog/do-you-need-planning-permission-for-a-conservatory

 

You are already under 50%, unless you male a glass wall facing his bricks.

 

Sorry to post that.

 

Given PP requirement, I think I would be looking at a real roof spanning from your existing wall to the neighbour (and coming to an agreement whilst his roof is still in bits, with you giving him a small benefit - once it is finished it will be much more difficult), then considering how to link to the existing,

 

Things that matter are light to your middle room, and maintainability of whatever your build, and new drains and waterhandling (and maintenance thereof). It will be easy to create a nightmare.

 

One thing you have not said is whether you want something warm or cool. If it looks like a conservatory you will not get the benefit on valuations.

 

F

 Light in the middle room is not a problem. Here is what I plan. 

248E7C06-36BA-4D93-8D11-F52A75115FD5.png

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Ok so that may well meet the definition of a conservatory as I’m pretty sure the “wall” element when it’s referred to is that as built, not necessarily the supporting walls. 

 

I’m sure this is the case as a corner conservatory by definition only has 50-60% glazing at best in its walls. 

 

@Adam Smith I hope you have deep pockets as that looks like very expensive structural glazing ... 

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6 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Do you have a picture of the drain with the lid off, it could be more involved than you think to move it, depends what is connecting to it. 

 

Why not not bring your front wall over to meet the new wall, and remove the old side wall of your kitchen and make it all one room. 

What sort of budget do you have. 

 I can’t imagine why moving the drain would be difficult. The lid is in front of the French doors. The stack coming down in the corner goes into the drain and it is also fed by the kitchen sink,  which is behind the window to the left.  I plan to move the stack in doors, like the houses to the left and right. The drain goes straight out to the front of the house. I have already driven a connection down through the middle of the house – where we have a toilet. 

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15 minutes ago, Adam Smith said:

 I can’t imagine why moving the drain would be difficult. The lid is in front of the French doors. The stack coming down in the corner goes into the drain and it is also fed by the kitchen sink,  which is behind the window to the left.  I plan to move the stack in doors, like the houses to the left and right. The drain goes straight out to the front of the house. I have already driven a connection down through the middle of the house – where we have a toilet. 

 

I would not suggest that it is difficult, but that it is very painful (potentially) if you get it wrong.

 

My conservatory is similar in some ways (I left a narrow maintenance alley down the rhs, and it has a lot of roof draining towards it), and I have some problems that are currently being addressed.

 

And I see you are taking your dividing wall out.

 

F

Edited by Ferdinand

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Planning consent should not be an issue because of PD rights (unless they have been removed or are restricted), but to be outside of building regs it needs wall / doors between it and the kitchen, which you don't have and over a metre from the boundary, which it is not.

 

This is an extension and you will need to comply with all the regs.  Most onerous may be part L because you have a lot of glazing in relation to floor area.  This will mean the glazing would need to be extra energy efficient and you will need some calcs to prove the heat losses are not excessive and possibly make improvements elsewhere to offset.

 

Regarding the floor, this will also need to comply and since it is now part of the kitchen it will be important that there is no settlement between them.

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I see the drains as the biggest issue here.

 

If as you say your mains drains run out to the front, then your target is to convert ALL your drains to internal stacks running under the (presumably) suspended ground floor out to the front, to clear that back wall of drain pipes and make the inspection chamber redundant. You will need a rodding eye for the drain run out to the front but that might be able to extend rearwards beyond the conservatory.

 

The drain coming down from the loft looks the hardest to deal with.

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If you take down the centre wall, why would you have UFH in the new bit but not in the old bit, surely you need to make these two floors combined and have the UFH in both areas. 

If you don’t combine the two floors you might as well chuck a radiator on the wall

What is the floor made of in the kitchen now? 

Why not extend that across the new bit so you have the same finish throughout. 

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20 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I see the drains as the biggest issue here.

 

If as you say your mains drains run out to the front, then your target is to convert ALL your drains to internal stacks running under the (presumably) suspended ground floor out to the front, to clear that back wall of drain pipes and make the inspection chamber redundant. You will need a rodding eye for the drain run out to the front but that might be able to extend rearwards beyond the conservatory.

 

The drain coming down from the loft looks the hardest to deal with.

 You’re right – the toilet in the loft is the biggest problem to deal with – but I’m having good ideas all the time. I imagined an intermediary stage in which I would take the drain from the loft down to join up with the toilet on the first floor, which would drain internally. It might be possible, as I’ve shown in the drawing here, to take the  drain from the loft toilet to the middle of the house and bring it down by the stairs – I’m still thinking about it. 

CCE76ED8-6E06-497D-821E-31A4619D0DC3.png

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5 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

If you take down the centre wall, why would you have UFH in the new bit but not in the old bit, surely you need to make these two floors combined and have the UFH in both areas. 

If you don’t combine the two floors you might as well chuck a radiator on the wall

What is the floor made of in the kitchen now? 

Why not extend that across the new bit so you have the same finish throughout. 

 Sorry, what is UFH? The floor in the kitchen will be a combination of the floor put down over 100 years ago – the extension used to be a wash house – and some flooring  due to an extension put on about 20 years ago – before we bought the house.  For the avoidance of doubt, the original houses were built with a wash house, which was extended about 20 years ago to make a toilet/Shower for an old lady who could no longer get up the stairs.

 I would love to have all the floors the same, but that would be major work! What I am planning could be done for a few thousand pounds and most people couldn’t tell the difference . 

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I think it is a mistake to make this bit as a conservatory AND take down the kitchen wall.  To do so would lead to massive heat loss through the inferior conservatory wall and roof structure.

 

Either make is as a conservatory as a separate room that can be shut off when it is too cold, or make it as a proper extension with a proper insulated roof and walls, with it opened up to the kitchen.

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3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Under floor heating

 Thanks, I guessed as soon as I pressed the send button. 

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25 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I think it is a mistake to make this bit as a conservatory AND take down the kitchen wall.  To do so would lead to massive heat loss through the inferior conservatory wall and roof structure.

 

Either make is as a conservatory as a separate room that can be shut off when it is too cold, or make it as a proper extension with a proper insulated roof and walls, with it opened up to the kitchen.

Okay - Double glazing with low emissivity glass (with argon gas cavity) U value = 1.5?? w/m2K.

Total area of glass on the roof and front two doors – 12 m². Assume the heat loss to the sides and floor is negligible. Assume a 20° C differential on a cold day.

Total heat loss is 1.5 X 12 X 20 = 360W. You could do that with quite a small radiator.

Wickes quotes a 1200 mm x 600 mm radiator as 2332 W.

At 15p per kilowatt hour my glass would add about 5p per kilowatt hour to run in the worst of weather - £1 per day.

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5 minutes ago, Adam Smith said:

U value = 1.5?? w/m2K

That is just the steady state value.

There are surface affects that will increase the losses.  I think they are in the Building Regs.

30 minutes ago, Adam Smith said:

I guessed as soon as I pressed the send button. 

That is exactly the time I see spelling and grammar errors.

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