Size and layout of your networking cupboard?

[puntloos]

Anyone built a "serious" electricity/networking/smart home closet? What design considerations did you have, and did it turn out OK?

 

In particular:

 

- I probably want to be able to fit half a 19" rack in there (typical size: (hxwxd) is 0.9m x 0.6m x 1.1m for a server or 2, sonos style stuff, maybe networking gear

- Consumer unit, including higher power stuff (charging car, high-power induction hob)

- Smart home stuff,  I am imagining every room's main power cable should probably end up here and be switchable? 

- Air conditioning/ventilation

- All network cables should end up here so the broadband gateway, routers, a switch or two.. 

 

I *think* a closet of 1.5x1.5x2.6 seems sufficient for all this, but perhaps I'm underestimating how much stuff goes here?

[joth]

7 hours ago, puntloos said:

- Air conditioning/ventilation

You mean just the controllers for these, right? (Or the ducts and air moving fans and manifolds and heat exchangers too?)

1.5m deep seems a lot, you could get an MVHR in there, but planning all the ducting runs is what will then take the space. A/c units also have refrigeration pipes and condensation drains which needs spacing away from the electrical gear.

 

Our plans have a first floor node 0 / electrical closet that's 1150 x 410mm footprint, so not as generous as you have but it was the space available and I think will work as it's electrical/network/media gear only. The 19" rack kit maybe tight, especially as the Unifi switches are so damn big. (And noisy) 

[andyscotland]

Seen quite a lot of networking cupboards, most in commercial premises. I would say make it as shallow as you can get away with - deep enough for the rack & kit but so you have to stand in the corridor with the door open to do anything.

 

Unless you want all the mops / brooms / hoover / linen / camping gear / whatever doesn't fit in the other cupboards piled up against your shiny electronics....

 

Also, plenty of ventilation.

[MikeSharp01]

Don't forget that a lot of the components you are likely to be using are not 19" rack ready so you will probably need some shallower DIN rail panels for home automation / IoT stuff as well as the 19" rack. On the 19" rack you may well find that you do not need the full depth as you probably won't be fitting full depth routers / switches etc. The only really deep thing might be the UPS and you don't need 19" for a patch panel although I agree this is an industrial standard even they don't need it.

 

+1 to ventilation. 

[Bitpipe]

We just have a basic 19" 24 port ethernet switch and a larger RJ45 patch panel into the rear of which all the hardwired ethernet sockets are terminated, sits in a 2U rack in the loft space (where we thought the BT master socket may have been located).

 

As it turned out we managed to get the connection underground to the pole so avoided a drop wire - master socket is in basement and it is extended to the ground floor study where I keep the BT Smart hub on my desk. Local devices (NAS, laptop dock etc) plug into that directly and then I've patched the hub into the switch over the home Cat 6 wiring.

 

I've tested the performance impact of hub in study vs master socket and there's no difference - the shonky street wiring from ours to the local fibre cabinet is the main performance drag.

[puntloos]

15 hours ago, joth said:

You mean just the controllers for these, right? (Or the ducts and air moving fans and manifolds and heat exchangers too?)

 

Actually I only meant that the cupboard needs to be ventilated/airconditioned - no HVAC gear in here  (for one, RF noise...)

 

15 hours ago, joth said:

1.5m deep seems a lot, you could get an MVHR in there, but planning all the ducting runs is what will then take the space. A/c units also have refrigeration pipes and condensation drains which needs spacing away from the electrical gear.

 

Our plans have a first floor node 0 / electrical closet that's 1150 x 410mm footprint, so not as generous as you have but it was the space available and I think will work as it's electrical/network/media gear only. The 19" rack kit maybe tight, especially as the Unifi switches are so damn big. (And noisy) 

Noisy. That's a fair point, perhaps some sound insulation would be a Good Idea(tm) too.

[puntloos]

14 hours ago, andyscotland said:

Seen quite a lot of networking cupboards, most in commercial premises. I would say make it as shallow as you can get away with - deep enough for the rack & kit but so you have to stand in the corridor with the door open to do anything

 

Yeah that's the thing, history is littered with people saying 'you will never need more than X'. But obviously space waste costs $$$

 

For one a Tesla Powerwall could fit nicely in some cupboards..

Edited August 29, 2019 by puntloos

[andyscotland]

3 minutes ago, puntloos said:

 

Yeah that's the thing, history is littered with people saying 'you will never need more than X'. But obviously space waste costs $$$

 

For one a Tesla Powerwall could fit nicely in some cupboards..

 

This is very true.

 

But also why all the other cupboards get full so the carefully ventilated, beautifully spacious, future-proofed data centre ends up with wet mops leaning against the router, and boxes of stationery rammed up against the vents. Both causes of fried gear I've been to over the years.

 

You could of course fit a lock and control what gets put in there, but I know how that would go down in my house. Better to design out the argument I reckon ?

[Temp]

I recently started using some Power line kit (network over the mains). Apparently this works best if the transmitter and receiver are on the same mains circuit. This implies it might be worth putting the consumer unit in the network cupboard as then the power line transmitter would be reasonably close to all mains circuits allowing you to plug in an RX almost anywhere in the house.

 

I'm using a cheap kit to send network out to my shed some 50m away  (SWA cable) so I can have WiFi in the garden. I haven't tested the max speed over the mains part of the link but the following path...

 

WWW.Fast.com - Internet - Our Modem - Powerline Tx - house CU - 50m swa underground - "Garage" CU - 10m mains circuit in shed - Powerline Rx with built in WiFi AP - 5m - Tesco Huddle

 

...manages about 30Mbit/s which is about as good as I can get from the wifi AP in my modem.

[Temp]

 

23 hours ago, puntloos said:

Anyone built a "serious" electricity/networking/smart home closet? What design considerations did you have, and did it turn out OK?

 

In particular:

 

- I probably want to be able to fit half a 19" rack in there (typical size: (hxwxd) is 0.9m x 0.6m x 1.1m for a server or 2, sonos style stuff, maybe networking gear

- Consumer unit, including higher power stuff (charging car, high-power induction hob)

- Smart home stuff,  I am imagining every room's main power cable should probably end up here and be switchable? 

- Air conditioning/ventilation

- All network cables should end up here so the broadband gateway, routers, a switch or two.. 

 

I *think* a closet of 1.5x1.5x2.6 seems sufficient for all this, but perhaps I'm underestimating how much stuff goes here?

 

Mine is a walk in cupboard about 18" deep. Standard door matches the rest in the house.

 

In ours we have:

 

CU for the house.

Phone master socket

Modem

Network patch panel (probably wouldn't bother next time)

16 port Hub.

Cheap Network Attached Storage drive (backup our PCs).

DECT Base Station for cordless phones (another upstairs).

TV distribution amplifier

Burglar alarm panel. 

 

I also have a NAS server and hub (with POE ports) for 4 wired Network cameras in the loft.

 

Many mains adaptors for the above plugged into two wall mounted extension blocks.

 

The back wall of our cupboard is plywood on battens which hides all the network, TV and mains wires. Being plywood means its easy to mount something later like a small shelf or additional network hub.

 

PS: just about everything has ended up connected to everything else. For example I ended up running phone and alarm signals over the wired network.

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Temp

[j_s]

I'm about to sort my Comms cupboard out very soon. Will be using a poe switch and then running a few ubiquiti WiFi units. Question is, do I go for a patch panel or just terminate the cat5 with rj45 connectors and plug them straight into the switch? Space is not great so if I can get away with it is like to leave the patch panel

Edited August 29, 2019 by j_s

[Temp]

5 minutes ago, j_s said:

Question is, do I go for a patch panel or just terminate the cat5 with rj45 connectors and plug them straight into the switch?

 

If i build again I wouldnt bother with a patch panel.

 

 

 

 

[puntloos]

On 30/08/2019 at 00:34, Temp said:

 

If i build again I wouldnt bother with a patch panel.

 

 

 

 

Why not? How much extra did it cost? 

In general I do think this is a good option to save, clearly it mainly makes ''management' easier but that's a one-off not a day to day thing in a residence.

[Temp]

I'm not sure it's really made things easier. 

 

At the end of the day most of the cables from network cupboard to rooms end up connected to a multi port hub. The choice is do they plug directly into the hub or via a patch cabinet. As I very rarely make changes they might as well be plugged in directly.

 

Incidentally I have a 16 port hub and never thought they would all be used but I just used the last port recently.

 

 

[puntloos]

1 minute ago, Temp said:

I'm not sure it's really made things easier. 

 

At the end of the day most of the cables from network cupboard to rooms end up connected to a multi port hub. The choice is do they plug directly into the hub or via a patch cabinet. As I very rarely make changes they might as well be plugged in directly.

 

Incidentally I have a 16 port hub and never thought they would all be used but I just used the last port recently.

 

 

Hm, surprising. I'm a pretty computery guy, but I'm currently doing still fine with about 10 ports (as well as a few broadband router's ports)

But yeah, 32 sounds sensible to spec for.. to be fair though I think wifi will mostly cover the last meters while I think a single cat 6 can go to most rooms.. or?

 

I expect i will do something like

- One central access point near the broadband router

- A few 'orbi/google wifi' style sattellite access points

(these also have an 'ethernet out' so you can connect a switch, that I would star-out to 1-3 room ethernet sockets per room..)

 

But effectively this amounts to 'one ethernet plug per room' at most.. so 6-ish I guess... and then a few dedicated lines to e.g. media player, server..

 

[Mr Punter]

We have all the stuff in a sliding door wardrobe in the back corner. We have consumer units x 2, 14 no. CAT5 terminated into patch panels flush mounted in the plasterboard, 16 port fanless switch, broadband modem, Unifi AP, phone master, TV cables, TV distribution and door entry control box and it takes up very little room.

 

I prefer not to have a cupboard just for this.  Nothing gets too hot so we have clothes etc in there too.

[puntloos]

23 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

We have all the stuff in a sliding door wardrobe in the back corner. We have consumer units x 2, 14 no. CAT5 terminated into patch panels flush mounted in the plasterboard, 16 port fanless switch, broadband modem, Unifi AP, phone master, TV cables, TV distribution and door entry control box and it takes up very little room.

 

I prefer not to have a cupboard just for this.  Nothing gets too hot so we have clothes etc in there too.

All of this stuff in one place? Not bad.. how much volume are you using for it so far?

Perhaps just a section of a wardrobe would suffice for this.. 

[Scoobyrex]

regarding the patch panel or not conversation.

 

Structured cabling should be solid core copper,  these are a pain to fit an rj45 connector directly to.  Solid core copper cables are not great at being bent, wriggled, plugged in and out ect and can break the core in doing so. You should use solid core copper between the patch panel and the wall socket, and stranded cable as "patch" leads to the switch and to the end device.

 

POE devices should run over solid core cables for the patch leads and the structured cable.

 

A patch panel is about £30.  I wouldn't do a structured cabling install without one.

[IanR]

9 minutes ago, Scoobyrex said:

POE devices should run over solid core cables for the patch leads and the structured cable.

 

Oopps, I didn't know this. What's the impact of not doing so?

 

I'm using stranded cable from integral PoE Switch on NVR to patch panel for all cameras and from patch panel to PoE switch for APs.

Very glad I used patch panels, much tidier, and easier to reconfigure. 

[joth]

44 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

Oopps, I didn't know this. What's the impact of not doing so?

 

I'm using stranded cable from integral PoE Switch on NVR to patch panel for all cameras and from patch panel to PoE switch for APs.

Very glad I used patch panels, much tidier, and easier to reconfigure. 

Most patch panels and wall sockets (keystone jacks) use an IDC punch-down connector, and it'll be a miserable job terminating flexible cable into those.

 

Aside from  that, I'm curious what that reason  is that installation cable is normally solid core?  (Same for mains cable)

 

[IanR]

22 minutes ago, joth said:

Most patch panels and wall sockets (keystone jacks) use an IDC punch-down connector, and it'll be a miserable job terminating flexible cable into those.

 

Aside from  that, I'm curious what that reason  is that installation cable is normally solid core?  (Same for mains cable)

 

 

To clarify I've used solid core for all structured cabling to patch panels, but have used stranded patch leads for everything, including to PoE devices, contrary to the comment from @Scoobyrex, so was asking the question "why solid core patch leads for PoE devices?"

[TonyT]

IDC is designed for solid cores

fixed wiring is solid cores

patch leads stranded 

[Scoobyrex]

14 hours ago, IanR said:

 

Oopps, I didn't know this. What's the impact of not doing so?

 

I'm using stranded cable from integral PoE Switch on NVR to patch panel for all cameras and from patch panel to PoE switch for APs.

Very glad I used patch panels, much tidier, and easier to reconfigure. 

 

it is voltage drop, resistance and heat related. The switch has to work harder and can be problematic over long runs.

 

IMO a short patch lead being stranded and the structured (in-wall) cable being solid is fine.

[Scoobyrex]

13 hours ago, joth said:

Most patch panels and wall sockets (keystone jacks) use an IDC punch-down connector, and it'll be a miserable job terminating flexible cable into those.

 

Aside from  that, I'm curious what that reason  is that installation cable is normally solid core?  (Same for mains cable)

 

keystone jacks use RJ45 termination and enable stranded cable to be use for structured cabling. It still shouldnt be used for POE applications.  use solid core cables and punchdowns for both patch panel and wall sockets.

 

fitting rj45's on solid core cables for keystones is a real chore as the solid cores are to big for the pin sockets of the RJ45.

[Scoobyrex]

My network/AV build is as follows.

 

2 x Middle Atlantic Wall pivot rack (16U)

1st rack

Cisco 8 Port POE switch

Cisco 48 Port Gigabit switch

2x2.5Gb Fibre trunks between switches.

48 port patch panel

TP Link cloud controller.

6 x TP Link Access Points

Sonicwall Firewall

EMC NAS

Bunch of smart home stuff. 

 

I should of got a bigger POE switch.  I am on the limit of the poe output and have no further upgrade potential.

The 48 port switch has 32 ports used, I have swapped the fans out for noctua's to reduce the obscene noise it produces.

 

2nd rack

Pioneer AV Receiver (Living Room)

Pioneer AV Receiver (Family room)

Yamaha Network Amp (Garden)

 

The house has a T-shape stairs, with two separate under stair cupboards,  one of these will be the comms room, it measures 1.7M x 0.9M, has a slanted ceiling hence the two separate racks.

 

My plan is to have both a feed and exhaust for the MHVR system into this comms room for cooling.