Spinny

OK thanks for comments. The supply pipework is 32mm MDPE mains in, connected into 22mm copper (16mm MLCP tee to kitchen, 15mm copper tee to outside tap) through water softener (currently on bypass), then approx 5m of 25mm MLCP pipe to the cylinder location, final 1m in 22mm copper to the reducing combination valve. I was getting 37 l/m from the outside tap, so I know the mains supply is capable of providing a continuous 37l/m through 15mm copper. So the main supply through the 22mm copper and 25mm MLCP should be providing at least that and one would think 40l/m + into the combination valve. Mains pressure 3.5 bar. Unfortunately I can't change the 5m of 25mm MLCP with its press fit connector at each end, because it runs under the suspended floor which now has underfloor heating installed. Had I seen the MLCP connector bore reduction at the time I would have insisted the plumber put in 32mm MLCP. But that is the big unspeakable secret with MLCP and press fittings. I have seen some Wavin Tigris M5 / K5 press fit MLCP connectors which claim ''The new Wavin Tigris K5/M5 with Opti Flow reduces the pressure loss in the installation due to the up to 50% larger orifice..''. Mentioned them to my plumber who promptly claimed they would make no difference, and proceeded to fit cheaper ones he uses. A lot of trade are not interested in using anything except what is available off the shelf at their chosen merchant. System performance for the customer doesn't come into it - in fact I have never seen a plumber measure a flow rate.

I am talking total combined output there - that is Hot Flow + Cold Flow. If it is Christmas and I have family staying - say every year for the next 15 years. Then you have 6 adults in the house, maybe 2 or 3 grandchildren. You want to run 2 showers at the same time. Someone is running taps in the kitchen making breakfast, someone just put the washer on, and someone flushes the loo. So if the system can't handle it, someone is getting a bad shower, and you are into shouting round the house about who can use a bathroom or ensuite. At present the highest simultaneous output I am getting is 34 l/m combined hot and cold downstairs - that is 17 l/m each for hot and cold. Hot flow and cold flow are not separate, they all come through one input pipe and combination valve. I am only getting more like 20-24 l/m simultaneous combined on other outlets. I don't think this is unusual, part of the selling point of UVC vs gravity fed is the ability to run two bathrooms etc. My mains supply should be capable of 40 l/m+. Are we really saying there is no-one here that has ever seen flow problems with a domestic system regardless of how it is plumbed.

I mentioned on another topic, plumber is planning to replace my Caleffi pressure reducing combination valve with a 28mm valve to improve flow (my pipework is 22mm). I am reading some stuff about pressure reducing valves having to be sized correctly for expected flows, and sometimes 2 valves plumbed in parallel may be required - one for low flow, one for higher flow. (I guess I expect flows from say 5/6 l/m with one tap on through to say 35-40 l/m - 2 showers, couple of taps, kitchen appliance all going.) (Seems unfortunate that someone can't design a pressure reducing valve that works well without restricting flow over a wide flow range) PS Do you actually need to have a balanced cold ? What experience and advice can people offer re combination valves for domestic UVC systems and maximising flow ?

Didn't you say on another thread that you were putting traps out for rats ? And had tried poison ? You could perhaps have dead rats somewhere. Got any flies ? What happened with us years ago - rats came up a drain - got into some house voids/cavities/subfloor - wife claimed she could smell something - rat man put down poison - also blocked drain aperture - rats slowly disappear - 2-3 weeks later a plague of flies in the house. When our old extension was demolished - builders found some rat carcases under the floor. (PS Someone I once knew had a distant relative die in their house - body not found for 6 months - had to be identified by DNA. OMG)

Should always chase horizontally or vertically between wall plates/entry/exit points - you will find the electrical safe zones defined on line. That way there is half a chance others won't drill into the cable. Even if it is safe, not actually power, as just a signal cable, nobody wants a severed aerial cable etc. How come you are not just going straight up the wall from subfloor ? What cable is it - Coax, HDMI, Network ?

This seems to me the sort of system plumbers should be using

DIY - nope too busy playing wack-a-mole with various other things. I do just have a plumber currently, maybe ok tbh, but a little frustrated with flow from a different tap he has plumbed in. It is a general problem with trades and differences of objectives between the trade and the customer. Many trades want to be in and out job done - pay me mucho money instantly etc. Most customers have no idea what the plumber is doing. Plumbing should last up to 50 years - that's a lot of people cursing a limited flow rate because a plumber couldn't be bothered to bend pipe etc. One came for a look, as soon as I said a few things about MLCP and connectors and flow rates I had measured, he said, you sound technical, I'll decide whether I want to quote, never seen again. Clearly that type like ignorant customers that never ask a question. Good people want to do a proper job, welcome questions, take some trouble - measure the system performance - leave things right - call customers up to come and fix anything temporary they do etc.

Could it be the drains ? Maybe lift the drain covers and check everything is free flowing. Have all the waste traps in the house got water in them ?

OK Garry, I see you are referring to the white plastic pipe to the outside tap. Sure that bit can be simplified, but really the whole caboodle from the mains pipe coming in forward needs to be reworked. I am wondering whether having the bypass valve mounted vertically would help.

It is actually a right bu***** muddle at the moment under my stairs. (I have had a constant nightmare with plumbers that say they will quote but don't, say they will come but don't, pop in to do something temporary and then never come back, only seem interested in doing the fastest possible rush job using only what is on site/in the van, don't really seem to want to solve issues, and/or want to bill criminal charges.) See photo. If anyone can offer any suggestions for how this should be sorted I would be very grateful. (Sadly I have the electricity main, the gas main & meter, and the water main all coming into an understairs cupboard.) On the left front you can see a 32mm MDPE water main at sub floor ground level, which has been connected to 22mm copper. This runs around in a 90 degree arc out of picture to the left because it still connects to the out of use lead pipe with a stop tap there. Left middle in the photo there is then a 15mm tee down into a blue valve (off) and connector to 16mm MLCP - this MLCP runs as a mains water feed to my kitchen sink location. Next along another 15mm copper tee with blue valve (on) that feeds (1) the outside tap and (2) an MDPE pipe under the floor that runs down to the end of the garden 40m away. The connection to the garden MDPE pipe was made temporarily just to test for leaks - comes vertically down in copper with a blue lever valve (off). Then a bypass valve for a monarch water softener (never yet installed) - bypass valve badly needs moving to the left to make proper room to connect flexihoses to the water softener. Out of the bypass valve into a 25mm MLCP to the cylinder location 5m away (where it connects to 22mm copper to feed the pressure reducing valve). You can also see the mains cable front left, middle is the gas enters through the wall and feeds upward in copper through the meter above and back down to join the yellow gas feed off to the boiler. (Meter man can't touch the gas feed pipe, plumber can't touch the meter etc) Answer welcome for a beer should we ever meet and a donation to the forum.

About a year ago we replaced our lead water pipe with a new 32mm MDPE connection. This resulted in the flow through our outside tap being good at 37 l/m - tap connected off the internal 22mm mains copper pipe using 15mm copper pipe. Since then the piping to the tap was changed as a temporary measure to plastic with various connectors. It now has 5 right angle elbows on the temporary pipe run (see pic). When I measure the water flow it is now 27 l/m - a 27% flow reduction. I therefore conclude that each elbow is reducing flow by about 2 l/m. My plumber has already fitted one 90 degree press fit elbow on another pipe run and the flow there seems lower than other internal taps. I presume I need to tell my plumber to stop using 90 elbows and to use only swept bends if I want to maximise flow ?

Thanks for response John. Yes this is the first creaking/groaning problem. Did the plumber de pressurise the UVC ? Not sure. I think the water was turned off at one point though, so perhaps. The UVC is Gledhill Stainless ES 250L, the expansion vessel is a Zilmet, nominal volume 22. The plumber's colleague has since returned. Said the noises were because of some kind of flutter/oscillation from the pressure reduction valve. He let some air out of the expansion vessel to reduce the pressure in it somewhat - didn't have a pressure meter - so not sure of expansion vessel pressure now. This has stopped the loud creaking/groaning noises whenever we ran the hot water. The system has had release through the tun dish on a regular basis over 3 months or so, relieved by running off hot water through the taps when spotted. The plumber is proposing to replace the pressure reduction valve (currently a Caleffi) with a new 28mm pressure reduction valve, having suggested this may help improve flow through the system. Mains pressure is about 3.5 bar.

Yes, all government schemes seem to get defrauded. Horrendous during covid. Imagine spending £500 Billion to no good effect, and actually doing so much longer term damage. And it is our money not theirs, the politicians waste it like water.

Builder from hell... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg09n7gj3lo Customer from hell... https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15761579/Plumber-broken-radiator-row-suing-employers.html

Have a TECE concealed cistern waiting to be fitted so can't comment on any direct experience of it. But on paper looks good and allows the flush volume to be adjusted and provides for a double flush. Cant recall the price but not likely a budget option. Full maintenance through the flush cover plate. Depends what features you want, and on ease of maintenance through the flush plate I guess. I do have a simple cheap plastic cistern on one toilet which is easily maintained by scoring through the right secret grout lines to then remove the worktop above for full access to maintain.

I have had a plumber here today who has repressurised my expansion vessel on an UVC system back up to 3bar. Unfortuately he left for the day and is now uncontactable but we have a problem. Every time we run off hot water we are getting a very loud creaking noise from the system. Any help or advice on what may be going on and how to resolve it ?

Yes really good design aimed at the full lifecycle and all stakeholders is rare. I do think that much building stuff is bought by the trades, and therefore gets targeted at the trades. Very few of the public care to know anything about what their house is made of unfortunately. Self builders are a godsend becauise they do care and will go out of their way to buy more innovative products. Problematic things in building... Cavity closers made of plastic - ill fitting, loose, plaster over like cardboard, tacked in with clout nails that fall out The absence of any ready made solution for 'the door threshold problem' in cavity wall construction Flexible plumbing connectors that speed up install but have limited life Roof ties that don't fit into the plasterline Joist hangers that protrude below the joist with no tool to rebate the joist or the plasterboard. Membranes in limited widths connectors from 80mm roof outflow pipes to 68mm downpipes press fit connectors that throttle pipe bore ...

You may be under the misapprehension that plumbing and building items are designed for the benefit of the end customer, whereas they are actually designed solely for the benefit of the installer. They only need to last long enough for you to lose the telephone number of the original plumber. You could call another plumber out at emergency rates - err oh gosh. Cui bono.

I am just so hacked off now. Just 4 weeks until the kitchen is supposed to be delivered, and something I thought straight forward is now in danger of messing the whole thing up. The guy told me he is doing a prestigious hotel now on a time penalty contract, so unlikely to reappear to fix anything for 2-3 weeks. Looking like I will have to postpone the kitchen yet again, with the kitchen company telling me they have no fitters in June. Spouse already on anti-depressants, having no kitchen and going to the launderette every weekend for over 3 years. It has just taken me 3 weeks to get another trade to answer his phone, despite telling me he would be back over 2 weeks ago to fix some loose ends. Rant over.

TBH no. They are locally based and have been used by people that have declared to us that they have been happy with their work. They have good reviews, and do work in high worth properties in the area. Their flooring expert has been a few times as we have been so delayed and always seemed knowledgeable. One concern is that the guy doing the work is probably over 60 now like me. I am now minded to ask for details of another customer they did LVT for - to go and take a look. I feel I have got a friday afternoon job. It didn't start well when they were supposed to start on Thursday but ended up just bringing the materials after they were delivered mid morning. Friday was the first time the guy doing the work saw the job.

@Nickfromwales any comments ? A good plastered wall might vary by 3mm, and a plasterer doesn't have the benefit of gravity.

Their T&C's says they may not be able to achieve SP1 = 3mm over 2m. But they have been telling me about laying floors in Paris for sheiks, and their next job is a luxury hotel. My suspended timber joist hallway is more level than a professionally levelled concrete floor ? If a floor is 5mm out over 2m then your dining table is going to rock - on a brand new floor.

AI says this... https://www.google.com/search?q=standards+for+floor+levelling&oq=standards+for+floor+levelling&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyCggDEAAYogQYiQUyBwgEEAAY7wUyBwgFEAAY7wUyCggGEAAYgAQYogTSAQoxMTU1NmowajE1qAIIsAIB8QWtHVJdU_RSivEFrR1SXVP0Uoo&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 No laser level was used. They ignored the markings I had put all around the walls using my water level. They stuck down a few self adhesive soldiers with the tops levelled by using a 1.8m spirit level (same level make as mine, not a 'professional' standard level) No spiked roller or squeegy was used at any point. Just a bit of hand trowelling to spread it. One young lad mixing, older guy pouring/spreading. Ran out of compound - it was obvious to me this would happen when they reached halfway and had used 2/3rds. One came back the following day to fill in the edges by hand with a different compound (I'd have thought the first compound should run wall to wall.) The final floor will be adhered LVT plank with no threshold between concrete and suspended floor - i.e. running from the front door through to the rear bifolds, in a continuous 'look through the house' layout. Yes their plan has always been to level out the concrete (max deviation about 30mm), then put smoothing compound of 3/4mm over everything, then stick the LVT to that. So never necessary to achieve a perfect levelling result without surface imperfections, but levelling is levelling.

Is this acceptable ? Should I be complaining ? So from friday we left the floor leveller to dry and so have just taken a quick look. Not impressed really. Not only did they run out of levelling compound and leave a section unfinished, but sections do not appear to be very level (see photos). There is a dip of up to 5mm across a 1.8m level at one point. The surface falls by 10mm into the doorway across a 1.8m level. Where each mix was poured and spread there are some small but noticeable ridge lines at the junction curves. I didn't expect perfection, but I expected something better than this ? Yes the plan has been to put a second coat of 3-4mm across the top and continiously over the suspended floor down hall and utility. But not what I was expecting as the starting point for that. What do people think ? I feel like making them do it again - what would be the implications of two coats where there should be one - would it need roughening to provide a key ?

The thing is that snagging stuff is mostly at the finishing stage, because that is what is visible. It begs the question of what 'snags' might exist in foundations, drains, structure, electrical cabling etc. New build estates can look good when newly built, go back 10 years later and you can find rainwater stains all down the render, paint/finishing peeling off window frames, rotten fences, cracked kerbs etc. Suddenly it doesn't look like a place you would want to live. As the generations pass, general knowledge and basic skills seem to erode. Most used to have some DIY manuals and knew how to change a plug, a tap washer, put up some shelves, change their car oil, mix cement, and keep house and home together. Usually learned helping out dad as a kid. These days a lot of that seems to have all but disappeared. Contributed to by youngsters in generation rent that have to call the landlord and not fix it themselves.