self build.....where to start.....

[Amateur bob]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

My neighbour did that.  Built a 1 bedroom bungalow.  Later added 3 more bedrooms and 2 more bathrooms in the loft.

 

The important thing is make the roof using attic trusses when you build the bungalow so all the structural work is in place to do the loft conversion later.  And design the layout so you have space on the ground floor to add the staircase, e.g an over large entrance hall that will fit a staircase later on.

 

Unless they system changes in the mean time, it will also mean you get a lower council tax band, and that does not change when you extend the property, it presently only gets re valued when you sell it.

interesting what are the potential savings on such a design? could i get close to £1000/m2?

[Jeremy Harris]

11 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

interesting what are the potential savings on such a design? could i get close to £1000/m2?

 

 

As already mentioned here lots of times, if you do a lot of work yourself then £1000/m² may be possible.  If you just employ a builder, then with the best will in the world you won't get close to this cost.

 

The big saving with self-build is doing as much work yourself as possible.

[joe90]

My build came in just over £1000 sq m and out of interest I asked my builder recently what he estimated my input would have cost had I asked him to do what I did, off the top of his head he came up with a figure of £85k, two years work by me, project managing, fitting windows, (making tea) all stud work, plumbing, all skirting,doors etc and lots and lots of miscellaneous bits.

[the_r_sole]

.

Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Bitpipe]

From a VAT / cashflow point of view, the initial phase of your build will be exempt from VAT aside from professional services (like SE, surveys, architect etc), plant hire and kitchen appliances etc. full list on the HMRC website.

 

Anyone who contracts for you, whether labour only or supply & fit need to zero rate their services upfront (they usually just need to see your planning permission), so that helps with cash flow.

 

Anything you buy directly will have VAT applied but you get a one shot reclaim when the build is deemed complete by building control or when occupied for a substantial time  (some debate on this at present) so that is not so good for cash flow during the build but you do get it back later.

 

Anything you build/buy after this point will attract full VAT so will be 20% more expensive, so hoarding materials that won't deteriorate over time is a good strategy. 

 

Also, if you use any kind of single contractor / project manager to manage the build etc then they will want paid for their time on top of any building work. If it's a general builder this is factored into the cost of the build as an overhead, a PM is a professional service.

 

Managing the build yourself removes this cost, however you then need to price your own time and see if it's a genuine saving.

 

Again, taking on the work of actual trades (where you don't need certification to work safely & legally) is a question of time vs money. You may get the same eventual result doing it yourself but it will take much longer and you will have a degree of trial and error which will mean your material wastage will be higher. You'll also need to invest in tools if you don't have access to the right kit.

 

You may need to take some classes if you're going to tackle more skilled work like plastering etc..

 

However, if you have spare time in the day then you can commit this and I'm guessing if you're building on the family farm then you don't need to worry about working past 6pm or at weekends from a disturbance point of view.

 

Have you read The Home Builder's Bible? A good starting point as Mark lays out the step by step costings for a fairly simple house and explains what the variables are that can save or cost money (e.g. slopey site, high spec finish etc..).

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Bitpipe

[Amateur bob]

3 hours ago, joe90 said:

My build came in just over £1000 sq m and out of interest I asked my builder recently what he estimated my input would have cost had I asked him to do what I did, off the top of his head he came up with a figure of £85k, two years work by me, project managing, fitting windows, (making tea) all stud work, plumbing, all skirting,doors etc and lots and lots of miscellaneous bits.

85k just to manage??? how big was the house?

[Moira Niedzwiecka]

I am not finished yet but will come in at around £275k.

House is 147sqm.

This price includes buying my neighbours garden, easement for drainage across field & woodland, all architects & planning fees, garage & landscaping as well as the build.

House is interesting design, highly insulated, triple glazed with MVHR & 4kw PV.

I have upgraded a lot of the interior fittings as felt the house warranted it., most purchased ex display or internet bargains.

I will be about £50k over original budget, but this is due to a change in circumstances.

We had to change method of construction, adapt foundations because of this and not able to do a lot of the work ourselves as planned.

A lot of the internal work was done by myself & my husband & latterly by me on my own.

It took 18 months to get planning, on 2nd attempt, & I am in my third year of building.

At times it has been a dismal slog, other times exhilarating.

I am now in sight of having an exciting, individual and sustainable house that I would never have been able to purchase.

You will need to be determined, fast learning & hardworking.

You also need to make 100% sure that your partner is up for the challenge as well.

[Amateur bob]

2 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

From a VAT / cashflow point of view, the initial phase of your build will be exempt from VAT aside from professional services (like SE, surveys, architect etc), plant hire and kitchen appliances etc. full list on the HMRC website.

 

Anyone who contracts for you, whether labour only or supply & fit need to zero rate their services upfront (they usually just need to see your planning permission), so that helps with cash flow.

 

Anything you buy directly will have VAT applied but you get a one shot reclaim when the build is deemed complete by building control or when occupied for a substantial time  (some debate on this at present) so that is not so good for cash flow during the build but you do get it back later.

 

Anything you build/buy after this point will attract full VAT so will be 20% more expensive, so hoarding materials that won't deteriorate over time is a good strategy. 

 

Also, if you use any kind of single contractor / project manager to manage the build etc then they will want paid for their time on top of any building work. If it's a general builder this is factored into the cost of the build as an overhead, a PM is a professional service.

 

Managing the build yourself removes this cost, however you then need to price your own time and see if it's a genuine saving.

 

Again, taking on the work of actual trades (where you don't need certification to work safely & legally) is a question of time vs money. You may get the same eventual result doing it yourself but it will take much longer and you will have a degree of trial and error which will mean your material wastage will be higher. You'll also need to invest in tools if you don't have access to the right kit.

 

You may need to take some classes if you're going to tackle more skilled work like plastering etc..

 

However, if you have spare time in the day then you can commit this and I'm guessing if you're building on the family farm then you don't need to worry about working past 6pm or at weekends from a disturbance point of view.

 

Have you read The Home Builder's Bible? A good starting point as Mark lays out the step by step costings for a fairly simple house and explains what the variables are that can save or cost money (e.g. slopey site, high spec finish etc..).

 

 

it sounds like getting a builder to do the whole job may be more efficient then would i pay the builder upfront or after completion? also if i get the builder to source everything does this do away with me having to pay vat then claim it back at the end(im going to be tight for cashflow as it is)? thanks

[Jeremy Harris]

10 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

it sounds like getting a builder to do the whole job may be more efficient then would i pay the builder upfront or after completion? also if i get the builder to source everything does this do away with me having to pay vat then claim it back at the end(im going to be tight for cashflow as it is)? thanks

 

If paying a builder for what is effectively a turn-key build, then you probably won't incur much, if any, material costs on which VAT can be reclaimed later, so will have that cash flow advantage.  The downside is that the cost of using a builder for the whole build may well outweigh any cash flow saving. 

 

Our VAT reclaim bill came to around £12k in total.  That's the VAT on about £60k's worth of materials that I bought and used in the build.  I shopped around for materials, particularly things like the kitchen, bathrooms and flooring, and saved around £20k to £30k over what we might have paid if we'd just used a builder.  For us there was no real cash flow issue with the delay in claiming back the VAT, because we saved far more than the VAT on materials by shopping around.  As a general rule a builder isn't really going to care what materials cost, and won't waste time shopping around, they will just buy everything from their usual supplier, perhaps the one that offers them the best credit arrangements.

[recoveringbuilder]

16 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

it sounds like getting a builder to do the whole job may be more efficient then would i pay the builder upfront or after completion? also if i get the builder to source everything does this do away with me having to pay vat then claim it back at the end(im going to be tight for cashflow as it is)? thanks

Have you ever seen a programme called cowboy builders or various other programmes along the same line.

You NEVER pay them upfront!

[joe90]

28 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

85k just to manage??? how big was the house?

 

No, not just to manage , doing lots myself.

3 hours ago, joe90 said:

two years work by me, project managing, fitting windows, (making tea) all stud work, plumbing, all skirting,doors etc and lots and lots of miscellaneous bits.

 

Add to this wiring garage, garage roof, guttering, fascia,s etc etc.  It was 240 sq m

[Amateur bob]

2 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

Have you ever seen a programme called cowboy builders or various other programmes along the same line.

You NEVER pay them upfront!

pay them in installments as the build progresses?

[joe90]

Yes, my builder invoiced me in about 4 instalments, total bill £114,000. VAT free as he supplied materials as well for the work he did. My VAT claim is fir the materials I bought and fitted myself, Windows, kitchen etc.

[recoveringbuilder]

1 minute ago, Amateur bob said:

pay them in installments as the build progresses?

Yes that’s what we did, their quote detailed various stages of the build and as each was completed to our satisfaction they were paid that stage. 

[Amateur bob]

5 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Yes, my builder invoiced me in about 4 instalments, total bill £114,000. VAT free as he supplied materials as well for the work he did. My VAT claim is fir the materials I bought and fitted myself, Windows, kitchen etc.

i see so for much of the actual build stage youd be able to just stand back and let builder get on with it? that 114k include the frame?

[Alex C]

39 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

it sounds like getting a builder to do the whole job may be more efficient then would i pay the builder upfront or after completion? also if i get the builder to source everything does this do away with me having to pay vat then claim it back at the end(im going to be tight for cashflow as it is)? thanks

This is the thread that will never end.

 

You can't stand back and watch expecting a builder to build you a house at £1000m2.

[Bitpipe]

52 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

it sounds like getting a builder to do the whole job may be more efficient then would i pay the builder upfront or after completion? also if i get the builder to source everything does this do away with me having to pay vat then claim it back at the end(im going to be tight for cashflow as it is)? thanks

 

Will certainly be more expensive - you're paying for the efficiency. Cashflow and budget are not the same thing. Budget is money you are prepared to spend, cashflow is what you have when.

 

If the whole build pot is sitting in the bank then cashflow is no issue.

 

There is also a well worn philosophy of the quality / cost / time triangle. You can have two at the expense of the third.

 

So

• a high quality lower cost build will take a long time (debatable if the cost is that low tbh as time adds its own cost).
• a quick and low cost build will sacrifice quality (or completeness) keeping in mind that BR & planning impose a minimum 'quality'
• a quality and quick build (or low effort from your pov) will increase cost.

[Bitpipe]

17 minutes ago, Alex C said:

This is the thread that will never end.

 

You can't stand back and watch expecting a builder to build you a house at £1000m2.

 

And if you find one they're either lying to you and will hit you with a massive 'extras' bill at the end or they're desperate and risk going bust before completion.

 

Or they may have won the lottery and are just building to keep themselves busy...

Edited June 6, 2019 by Bitpipe

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, Bitpipe said:

 

And if you find one they're either lying to you and will hit you with a massive 'extras' bill at the end

 

 

Recently happened to my barber.  He acquired a plot through his family (I'm guessing at a good price) and then had a local builder build his house.  He thought the quoted price was the price he'd pay.  Inevitably it wasn't, as the builder submitted a final bill for a few tens of thousands more than the quote.  I believe there was a bit of argument about it, but in the end he had no choice but to pay up, as, like pretty much every build contract, it wasn't to a firm price.

[Bitpipe]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

Recently happened to my barber.  He acquired a plot through his family (I'm guessing at a good price) and then had a local builder build his house.  He thought the quoted price was the price he'd pay.  Inevitably it wasn't, as the builder submitted a final bill for a few tens of thousands more than the quote.  I believe there was a bit of argument about it, but in the end he had no choice but to pay up, as, like pretty much every build contract, it wasn't to a firm price.

 

And if it were a firm price, it would have a 15-20% contingency added on before hand to cover his @r$e.

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Amateur bob said:

i see so for much of the actual build stage youd be able to just stand back and let builder get on with it? that 114k include the frame?

 

Mine was brick and block. No I was busy the whole time (apart from being in hospital and recovering fir a couple of months). Whilst the walls were going up I was roofing, wiring and finishing my large garage/workshop that the builder constructed in block and render.  Ref the above, mine was a set price, apart from work I wanted to do but was ill so an agreed price was struck fir the work I could not do.  I had the contingency not the builder and didn’t need it so had a large conservatory built in oak. The more I read about other builders the more it’s confirmed I had a brilliant builder.

[eandg]

I would definitely give a lender a call and work back the way. I had a wee bit more comfort that I would be able to borrow but having just got off the phone to one knowing we can spend the standard £1500/sq.m if required gives me some comfort to plan, particularly as initial costings for the shell are well on budget. 

[laurenco]

On 04/06/2019 at 17:10, Amateur bob said:

im thinking of doing a self build but as my name suggests i dont know that much about it, i have a potential plot my dad is going to give me so whats the next stage?

sign it over then apply for planning OR go to a lender and see how much i can afford? then work out size of house/design before applying? i have 100k to put towards the build myself and looking to build a 200m2 double storey house so say 200k total? rectangle shape to keep costs down, timber kit or block work?

 

my wife earns 20k but im recently self employed and partner of business so dont have 3 years of accounts

 

@Amateur bob  In this order: 

 

a) establish your total house building budget (your savings + what you can borrow)

b) establish what kind of house that will afford you and whether you're happy with that

c) run it by the planners

 

Here's some very basic info which might help:

 

a) Times your wife's wages by 4. Times your net profit (or anticipated net profit) by 4. Add your £100k savings to the pot. This is your total budget.

[note: there is a lot more to it and you should speak to self-build mortgage providers to go through it all, but use this for very basic starter budgeting purposes].

 

b) If you want as much bang for your buck, and are looking for size rather than bespoke design, look at timber frame kit houses, like Scotframe, Danwood etc. Here is a 200m2 house that's already been designed so you'd save a tonne on architects fees: https://www.scotframe.co.uk/house-style/orrin/. Get prices.

Here's a 1976ft2 house by Danwood that's £220,000 and you can move straight in. https://www.dan-wood.co.uk/en/projects/brave-176e

 

c) Once you've done your homework and established what you can afford, then go to the planners with your ideas. Paying £500 for a pre-app is fundamental in understanding what you can achieve and whether the whole thing will stack.  Turn it on its head: specialist planners can charge thousands of pounds for information that you could gain for just £500. 

 

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

54 minutes ago, laurenco said:

Once you've done your homework and established what you can afford, then go to the planners with your ideas. Paying £500 for a pre-app is fundamental in understanding what you can achieve and whether the whole thing will stack.  Turn it on its head: specialist planners can charge thousands of pounds for information that you could gain for just £500. 

 

I agree, when we wanted to self build I simply phoned the planners and asked if they thought I could re build the derelict bungalow into a cottage, they said either expand the footprint by 50% as a bungalow or go up a floor on existing footprint. It turned out to be wrong advice and when I quoted them they denied they said it, took four applications and an appeal (which we won by the way). Pre app would have given better advise. The planner said to me after the fourth application “you would probably win if you went to appeal”.   Go figure ?

[Amateur bob]

58 minutes ago, laurenco said:

 

@Amateur bob  In this order: 

 

a) establish your total house building budget (your savings + what you can borrow)

b) establish what kind of house that will afford you and whether you're happy with that

c) run it by the planners

 

Here's some very basic info which might help:

 

a) Times your wife's wages by 4. Times your net profit (or anticipated net profit) by 4. Add your £100k savings to the pot. This is your total budget.

[note: there is a lot more to it and you should speak to self-build mortgage providers to go through it all, but use this for very basic starter budgeting purposes].

 

b) If you want as much bang for your buck, and are looking for size rather than bespoke design, look at timber frame kit houses, like Scotframe, Danwood etc. Here is a 200m2 house that's already been designed so you'd save a tonne on architects fees: https://www.scotframe.co.uk/house-style/orrin/. Get prices.

Here's a 1976ft2 house by Danwood that's £220,000 and you can move straight in. https://www.dan-wood.co.uk/en/projects/brave-176e

 

c) Once you've done your homework and established what you can afford, then go to the planners with your ideas. Paying £500 for a pre-app is fundamental in understanding what you can achieve and whether the whole thing will stack.  Turn it on its head: specialist planners can charge thousands of pounds for information that you could gain for just £500. 

 

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

some useful information thanks, you say 4 times my net profit i should mention im one of 4 partners in the business and only have 5% share of the business so how does that affect it? im taking about 15k out the business a year, ive heard of scotframe would they save me costs on an architect as i could use one of their their pre designed houses?