Power equipment with no wayleave or easement

[Carrerahill]

3 hours ago, Randomiser said:

Does this mean the pole and cables are not owned by the DNO, but by the electricity provider?  The cables go from the pole on our site, to a pole on the neighhour's land and then across the road to another pole where it then starts to connect to properties.  If does not supply the derelict house on pur site, it has no connection at the moment.  If it does not belong to the DNO is there no need for there to be a wayleave?  At the end of the day I am not so worried about the value of the wayleave, only that the ultimate ability to tell them to "get your pole off my land" gives me levergare to have it moved at low or no cost.

 

Thanks in advance,

Randomiser.

No, not quite - national grid own all the 400kV and 275kV infrastructure and some 132kV, once it steps down to 132kV,  33kV, 11kV, then the end user voltages 415V then it is owned by, for example Scottish Power, Southern Electric etc... albeit these guys are also energy suppliers they also operate, regionally, the network. So in Scotland it is common to see Scottish power working on lines etc. I don't know who it would be in your area. 

 

So that is better than it being national grid network as they are not moving for anyone - however, it depends what is up there, you see all supplies are 3 phase to a point, lots of older houses even have 3 phase directly into them (now they just pick 1 phase for balancing reasons and run in single phase cable from the street as it is cheaper and easier and safer really) just because a house only has 1 phase coming into it, doesn't mean that it wasn't tapped from a 3 phase cable only meters away from your front door, so this is why I am interested in your cables because depending on what is up there it could potentially have been installed privately to take a connection to a dwelling - the DNO then installed a meter on the end of it all and the assumption is it is owned by the network operator, but it may not be!

 

I was involved in a rural project where we specified SP approved poles and cable, ran a pole drop and installed in SP approved methods, SP approved duct and more SP approved cable and ran in a cable to a property that SP then came along and connected up for the customer. It was far cheaper than getting them to do it - ultimately it meant it was privately owned from the local tap on a pole, albeit the DNO had equipment in the building that was theirs - bit of a ramble but my point is that in rural environments is common to see private water, electric and phone networks, albeit a supplier will then utilise it, IF they can see compliance to their network spec. 

 

If your cable is private, and with no paperwork to suggest otherwise, you may end up in a situation you can arrange for a new ducted section to be installed - you do the hard work - they pull a cable through the duct and drop it at pole A, run underground for your site, and it comes back up at pole B.

 

I cannot promise anything, but we have an account to a network operators database which may let me look into your cables for you, the issue is that in rural environments (and city amazingly), believe it or not, the operator often doesn't actually know where half the cables go to and from - I was absolutely astounded when I first learnt this. 

 

If you PM me the grid coordinates of part of the line in contention, I can see if I can pull it up and see if there is any info on it. 

 

 

 

 

[vivienz]

Interesting. I've no other experience of wayleaves or easements and just assumed they would be on everyone's deeds.  I suspect it was on mine as we bought the plot from an old farming family and the land hadn't changed hands since the 950s.

[Adrian Walker]

2 hours ago, Randomiser said:

Thanks for the additional advice, it makes a lot of sense to get the connection dealt with at the same time.  We are at an early stage, so hopefully will not cause a big delay if I get on to it now.

 

Randomiser.

 

Get a quote for supply first, then discuss about the changes.

[Gone West]

We had an electricity cable over sailing our plot where we were to build our house and I asked the DNO to move it. They moved it by repositioning several poles which meant negotiating with the farmer and in the end it took the best part of a year to get it done. Probably took longer than necessary because that farmer always wants something for nothing. It didn't cost us anything.

[Randomiser]

Thanks to everyone who gave me input.

 

I phoned up SSEN today to initiate discussions.  Not much engagement, but I suspect I was speaking to a call handler that deals with a range of topics.  So based on his advice I have now submitted the form which will kick off the quote process.  I did raise the fact that I would be looking to negotiate on the cost due to the lack of any wayleave for the pole and cable but I think it went over his head a bit, he just said that nobody would even speak to me until I had started the quote process.

 

I'll update as soon as I make some progress in case my experience is useful for others in the future.

 

Randomiser.

[recoveringbuilder]

I’m not surprised @Randomiser that the call handler seemed clueless, when I first mentioned to a team leader that if they wouldn’t reduce their quote I would be requesting removal of the pole in my garden his answer was ‘ well you’ll cut off your connection then’ —REALLY! I don’t have a connection!

 I find this repeatedly that the person on the other end of the phone knows less about things than you do yourself! Energy saving trust is another one you waste your time speaking to, can’t understand why they don’t employ people with a bit of savvy, I’m going off on a rant now, yesterday was in a local garden centre with my friend and she asked one of the staff the name of a plant she was interested in- answer- I haven’t a clue!

[scottishjohn]

Ok checked with my man --easement is  an english thing -not in scottish law

wayleaves   do transfer with land 

so first thing is to check if there is one

+get sight of the paperwork  

Edited February 15, 2019 by scottishjohn

[scottishjohn]

the only hope he gave was if it was made out to a person --when they go it goes --but not usual

[recoveringbuilder]

Oh well then SP energy must be wrong 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Christine Walker
Add photos

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Christine Walker said:

[...]

 I find this repeatedly that the person on the other end of the phone knows less about things than you do yourself!

[...]

 

Its quite normal.

 

In situations like this I sometimes ask;

"Well, since you know your internal systems, and the facts of this case - if you had this problem, what would you do now?"

[scottishjohn]

not trying to be funny -

-but the term servitude was not used until now --yes that is  totally  different thing than an easement 

I suspect what you have found is a gather up of scottish +english law  terms written by someone who is not competent in both  legal systems.

very few solicitors who work in both english +scottish law .

but hey 

I,m only going on what my solicitor has told me ,and in 35 years of very complicated sales of land and property,both domestic and company dealings  he has never steered me wrong

 to me common sense says

DNo would not want to keep making new deals everytime the property changes hands and would write in such a way it did keep in force when land changed hands

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Randomiser]

5 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

Ok checked with my man --easement is  an english thing -not in scottish law

wayleaves   do transfer with land 

so first thing is to check if there is one

+get sight of the paperwork  

John

 

I did check with the DNO and there are no legal agreements on file.  So no paperwork to get sight of.

 

Randomiser.

 

[Randomiser]

OK, so right on the service level deadline I received my quote from the DNO for the cable re-routing.

 

They have quoted £7,400 plus change to remove one pole, lay 88m of "185mm Wavecon" and make all the reconnections.  However, this assumes that we do all of the trenches and backfilling, despite me telling them that I would like them to provide a quote that included them doing this when I was called by the designer.  However, from that previous discussion I believe they charge for the trenching and backfill on a per meter basis, so it should not be that hard for him to give me that number.  Does anyone happen to have an idea what they might charge an hour?  I'm guessing that it may take a while for him to get back to me with the official number.

 

The quote includes moving a pole that is actually just on my neighbour's land to be on ours, I am pretty sure the neighbour will not have an issue with this.  Interestingly the designer called me to discuss this and he said that if I did not agree to this they would have to underground to the next pole and that would mean digging up the road which would mean it would be much more expensive - he really emphasised the word much.  I see that as good news as it means that when I negotiate who is paying for this (given there is no wayleave) they will have to bear in mind that higher cost if they do not agree to this and I tell them to remove their equipment.

 

Now I have a quote my mind is turning to the negotiation phase.  Does anyone have a suggestion as to what part of the DNO I need to engage with?  I do not think just going back to the guy that designed the rerouting will be productive.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Randomiser.

 

 

 

[AliMcLeod]

31 minutes ago, Randomiser said:

Does anyone have a suggestion as to what part of the DNO I need to engage with? 

 

When I had dealing with BP regarding a pipeline, they had a specific Wayleave Team that owns discussions/negotiations. You might have to contact the DNO for a name from someone at that team.

[Randomiser]

39 minutes ago, AliMcLeod said:

 

When I had dealing with BP regarding a pipeline, they had a specific Wayleave Team that owns discussions/negotiations. You might have to contact the DNO for a name from someone at that team.

Thanks for that.  I already have a contact point with the Wayleave Team as I got confirmation from them that there was nothing in place at the moment.  I had, maybe wrongly, got the impression that it was really only a record keeping department but it certainly makes sense as an initial point of contact.

 

Thanks again.

 

Randomiser.

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, Randomiser said:

Thanks for that.  I already have a contact point with the Wayleave Team as I got confirmation from them that there was nothing in place at the moment.  I had, maybe wrongly, got the impression that it was really only a record keeping department but it certainly makes sense as an initial point of contact.

 

Thanks again.

 

Randomiser.

 

The Wayleave Team are the people with the database and the files, who coordinate the info, if not the project implementation.

 

F

[Ferdinand]

Question: does eg an undocumented piece of electricity supply equipment develop the right to stay there after x years, as I can get the right to keep something attached to next door’s wall if there is no complaint?

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, Ferdinand said:

Question: does eg an undocumented piece of electricity supply equipment develop the right to stay there after x years, as I can get the right to keep something attached to next door’s wall if there is no complaint?

 

 

No, it doesn't.  I tested this with the big cable that was crossing under our plot and which had no wayleave or easement.  When pushed the DNO admitted that the cable had been put there many years earlier without any formal authority, so they relocated it and reduced our bill for moving other stuff accordingly, plus they waived the normal charges for drawing up a new wayleave.

[Randomiser]

3 hours ago, Randomiser said:

 

They have quoted £7,400 plus change to remove one pole, lay 88m of "185mm Wavecon" and make all the reconnections.  However, this assumes that we do all of the trenches and backfilling, despite me telling them that I would like them to provide a quote that included them doing this when I was called by the designer.  However, from that previous discussion I believe they charge for the trenching and backfill on a per meter basis, so it should not be that hard for him to give me that number.  Does anyone happen to have an idea what they might charge an hour?

 

I said how much do they charge per hour, of course I should have said how much do they charge per meter? ?

[Randomiser]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

No, it doesn't.  I tested this with the big cable that was crossing under our plot and which had no wayleave or easement.  When pushed the DNO admitted that the cable had been put there many years earlier without any formal authority, so they relocated it and reduced our bill for moving other stuff accordingly, plus they waived the normal charges for drawing up a new wayleave.

 

Thank you for raising a very good question.  But thank you even more for the answer!

[Randomiser]

The DNO has now come back to me and said that if they have to dig and backfill the trenches it will add £1400 to the quote.  This is much, much less than I was expecting.

 

This means the total quote for moving the pole and putting the cable underground is about £8,800 which I think is pretty good.  I am hoping that this lower than anticipated estimate means the discussion with the DNO over them picking up the cost because there is no wayleave will be easier.  The design engineer did say that if I do not agree to have the repositioned pole on my land the cost would be much higher as thet would have to dig across a road.  Hopefully that will put pressure in them to agree to take the cost.

[Randomiser]

Well, it has taken some time to get anyone from the DNO to speak to me and I have been given a jolly good run around, but finally today I managed to speak to somebody who sounds like they are going to engage.  After two calls, with a break in the middle while the guy I was speaking to went off to speak to his senior I think the first round of the dance was done.

 

The DNO guy said that the wayleave with the old owner would have terminated when the property was sold to me anyway and that they now have a "bare wayleave".  I have searched on google for the term "bare wayleave" but as yet I have not found any reference to it, that may be down to my IT skills but I am also not sure it matters anyway*.  The DNO guy has said that I have two choices, I can pay the cost of moving the equipment and it will be done "quickly" or I can serve notice on them to remove their equipment which has a twelve month lead time.  I wonder if this is a standard part of their playbook as it was accompanied with a bit of "well I am sure you want to get on as soon as you can" patter.

 

I pointed out that there has never been a Wayleave in place according to their own Wayleave Registry team.  I also said that I have plenty of things that need to be organised and so a twelve month wait may not be any particular issue, especially as the planning consent is valid for a lot more than twelve more months.  He came back with his second gambit, saying how much easier it will be for me to get a connection for the replacement house if the cable is accessible on my land.

 

We then took a bit of time looking at the drawing for the rerouting at each end of the phone, I pointed out that the cable seems to serve a lot of their customers and that the engineer that carried out the design work said that if I would not have a relocated pole on my land the rerouting would become a lot more expensive as they would have to dig up a road to lay it under it.  Of course at the time he told me that he did so to get me to agree to have the pole on my land, but it was rather useful to play this back to the guy I was talking to now.  Having looked at the diagram he did not deny that other than having a pole on my land the only option was to put it under the road.

 

So after I had demonstrated I was not going to cave in at the threat of a twelve month wait and shown I also had a bit of leverage myself, as it would be a lot cheaper for him to relocate it on my land than to have to dig up the road he reached for the next page in his negotiation manual - he would have to speak to "higher authority" to discuss this.  I'm not sure if it was genuine or a play for time but apparently "higher authority" is on maternity leave and will not be back for a couple of weeks.  But he did say he would copy me on the email he is going to send explaining the situation and asking for guidance.

 

So I have at least managed to get an initial engagement and have broadly given him a couple of weeks to discuss it internally.  My gut feel at this stage is having started off trying to be helpful I should not it drift too long now and if in a couple of weeks they do not come back minded to cover the cost I will probably serve notice for them to remove the equipment.  But when I do that I will explain I am doing it just so that I have a 'backstop' in case we can't reach a sensible commercial agreement.

 

Any thoughts much appreciated.

 

Randomiser.

 

* From what I have read it is right that a Wayleave terminates when a property is sold.  This seems a little odd to me as it means that every time a property changes hands the DNO runs the risk of the new owner serving notice for them to remove their equipment.  I would have thought they would want a bit more certainty than that.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Well done for the game played so far!

 

I think your assessment of the way they are playing this is spot on.  They will try every trick they can to squeeze money from you, as they won't want to have to bear any additional cost if they can help it.  I found that having a digger on site that dug up their unauthorised underground cable, which was only buried about a foot down, (with no warning tape,  pretty scary and definitely not as it should have been laid) spurred them into action in the end.  I dragged their cable clear of the area we needed to excavate and sent them a photo of the work in progress, telling them that they needed to get a move on before their cable got damaged.  This is the offending cable that had no wayleave, at the lower left, just after we'd exposed it and before we dragged it to one side:

 

[newhome]

Sounds encouraging so far. 

 

Did a search. Came up with this one that says “bare permission” (search for the word bare in the document). 

 

Electricity Wayleaves

 

Looked up bare permission in respect of wayleaves and found this match in a specialist book:

 

Wayleave book

 

And this definition of a ‘bare licence’

 

Definition of 'bare'

 

Sounds like an informal right to do something that can be revoked. 

 

As a search tip, if there is a phrase you want to search for put it in quotes, “bare permission” wayleave for example will tell Google to look for the phrase ‘bare permission’ but also the word wayleave. That helps to get better matches and home in on something more specific. 

 

 

 

[newhome]

1 hour ago, Randomiser said:

From what I have read it is right that a Wayleave terminates when a property is sold.  This seems a little odd to me as it means that every time a property changes hands the DNO runs the risk of the new owner serving notice for them to remove their equipment.  I would have thought they would want a bit more certainty than that.

 

True, but a land owner does not have to agree to an easement that is registered by the Land Registry and more permanent, so a wayleave is better than nothing as far as the power company is concerned I guess.

 

Wayleave vs Easement