Scotframe, Fleming Homes (and others)

[eandg]

We are looking for a kit manufacturer who'll supply a timber superstructure (with factory fitted insulation, windows and doors), in Scotland. Fleming Homes and Scotframe appear to be the two obvious ones. If you've had experience with either could you share your thoughts please? I'm particularly interested in the differences in cost and service as well as the benefits or otherwise of Scotframe's closed panel versus Fleming Homes' open one. Thanks!

[pulhamdown]

Hi.  We had a Scotframe kit, and are very pleased with it.  The only problem we had was in getting the kit delivered at the time we initially agreed.  Being brutally honest, they agreed to our date, knowing fine well they couldn't deliver then.  They basically have a production line mainly supplying developers, and single house builders just have to fit in to a slot in between.  Probably better to ask them when they can deliver, rather than when you want it.  But, that apart, they were excellent.  Once deliveries started, everything was on time, and correct.  They also supply windows, doors, skirting, etc, etc, and that all went smoothly.  Any small items which were wrong, or missing were replaced very quickly.   I have no experience of Fleming homes, but can certainly recommend Scotframe.  We have now been in our house for nearly six years, and still loving it.   One other thing.  We changed quite a lot of the interior, and exterior, from the original kit specification, and Scotframe made all the considerable changes without any fuss.

[recoveringbuilder]

We have just almost finished our house which was from Claymore timber frame inFife. We met the two brothers who run the firm at the Homebuilding show, at the time we had our plans and gave them to several kit suppliers that day. Scot frame and Fleming homes never got back to us despite having the plans, claymore got it priced up within about 6 weeks and another two firms which I now can’t remember the names of didn’t get in touch until we had actually started!

Claymore did their utmost to deliver when we wanted it even although they were extremely busy they managed to get it to us a fortnight before what they had originally said, there was loads of stuff (wood , insulation etc) left over and anything we were short of was supplied without question, they even personally delivered nails that we needed. We had looked originally at a kit from ptarmigan homes however architect drew up plans for us as there were several things that we would have wanted changed anyway and we ended up with a kit that had far better spec and finishings( all oak including staircase) for the same price as we would have paid for the off the peg one, I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend Claymore.

[newhome]

I used Scotframe in 2009 and used their closed panel system. It was called Supawall back then but was essentially the same as the type they offer now I imagine. 

 

This was it back then 

 

https://sites.google.com/site/sapserviceuk/informationadvice/Building-Fabric/News/supawall

 

Impressions were that the company was good to deal with. They provided the building control drawings, SE for the frame, and quite a lot of the internals, so internal doors, skirting etc down to every nail and screw for the materials they supplied. 

 

The panels were easy to install. The joiners we selected hadn’t worked with this system before and they were really surprised how (relatively) easy it was. They just fitted together. The fact that they are large factory built panels means that air tightness is excellent as you only need to worry about the few joins and there is no chance of the insulation being installed shoddily. Labour on site is reduced too. 50mm of insulation was added to the external walls before the blockwork was done. We only had the walls built in this way (I think they only offered the walls at that time). I think it added circa 10k to the cost of the frame but I think we would have had to buy insulation and have it installed so it was probably a bit less than that once that insulation had been added to the basic cost, plus the insulation cost. 

 

 

[dpmiller]

Don't negate providers on the other side of the Irish Sea, they're not afraid to travel...

[newhome]

1 hour ago, pulhamdown said:

We changed quite a lot of the interior, and exterior, from the original kit specification, and Scotframe made all the considerable changes without any fuss.

 

+1 

[Redoctober]

For balance especially since they have been mentioned on the thread heading, I would like to bang the drum for Fleming Homes. We too looked at a number of TF providers and one thing we soon learnt was that it was nigh impossible to compare them like for like!!

Flemings got the nod for many reasons -  They offered various options, which as complete novices and wanting to minimize as much risk as possible, was of benefit to us. Anything from supply only, of a TF through to a near "turnkey" product.

Again, for us, they maintained good channels of communication, always available on the phone and welcomed visits to the factory / office. On top of that, they are just 10 miles from our plot!

Good luck researching the pro's and cons but I fear it won't be easy. Decide what you want and not only who can deliver it for you, but most importantly I suppose, who you feel you can do business with, on a personal level. 

[eandg]

Thanks for the replies so far. 

 

Christine, Claymore's website isn't great - are they factory fitted, do they liaise with  building control, what u-values can they achieve etc? 

 

Dpmiller, who are the Irish companies that travel? 

[dpmiller]

you might look at Kudos, TTFC, QTF, Kilbroney, Kingspan, or Leadon. Some have "book" designs, all will manufacture to your supplied plans.

We went with Leadon and I'll give them a hearty recommendation.

[recoveringbuilder]

‘Our company is set up to provide a full technical service assisting with drawings and designs, U-Values, SAP Ratings, Energy Performance Certification, Passive Design and can incorporate innovative ecological construction methods to achieve all building standard requirements.’

 I lifted this from their website @eandg would need to look at our paperwork for U-values on our kit and tbh I don’t understand these things that’s hubbys side of things, 

we had our own SE who they were quite happy to liaise with and he wasn’t the easiest of people!

[eandg]

Thanks @Christine Walker and @dpmiller. 

[DonGillies]

I have just used Fleming Homes on a kit in Dunkeld, I've been very happy with the service and the kit.

 

I had them supply and install the Velux windows and the windows and doors, this way its all zero rated for VAT.

 

One thing I will say is to ask them to get a like for like the quote from Alan Bros for the windows. They tend to push the Rational windows but the Alan brothers windows are top quality and in my opinion better than the Rational (We had Tripple glazed ali clad) I managed to save £4k by changing to Alan Bros.

 

I'm just starting a second project now and going to use Flemings again, this time I will be getting the uninsulated kit and will be doing the insulating my self. Think the price from Fleming was reduced by around £10k if i do that myself (fit 120mm Celotex in the kit panel then 50mm on the inside) and materials are about £4k. Means i should save £6k as my labour is free. 

 

 

[recoveringbuilder]

I spoke to Fleming homes at the home building show in October 2017 and left them a set of my plans which had been passed and we were going to start the build in the spring of 2018 , they never made any contact with me after that day even although they said it would be around 6 weeks before I heard from them!

[eandg]

2 hours ago, DonGillies said:

I have just used Fleming Homes on a kit in Dunkeld, I've been very happy with the service and the kit.

 

I had them supply and install the Velux windows and the windows and doors, this way its all zero rated for VAT.

 

One thing I will say is to ask them to get a like for like the quote from Alan Bros for the windows. They tend to push the Rational windows but the Alan brothers windows are top quality and in my opinion better than the Rational (We had Tripple glazed ali clad) I managed to save £4k by changing to Alan Bros.

 

I'm just starting a second project now and going to use Flemings again, this time I will be getting the uninsulated kit and will be doing the insulating my self. Think the price from Fleming was reduced by around £10k if i do that myself (fit 120mm Celotex in the kit panel then 50mm on the inside) and materials are about £4k. Means i should save £6k as my labour is free. 

 

 

That's a fair saving on insulation! I've insulated an extension before (with a local joiner doing the frame) but wouldn't have the time to do it on a full new build. Does anyone have any idea much you'd be paying labour (and the additional time on site)? I was thinking that I'd get labourers to do the inside insulation and sheet plasterboard so it's maybe not a great deal of extra work to bundle onto that.

[Thedreamer]

18 minutes ago, eandg said:

That's a fair saving on insulation! I've insulated an extension before (with a local joiner doing the frame) but wouldn't have the time to do it on a full new build. Does anyone have any idea much you'd be paying labour (and the additional time on site)? I was thinking that I'd get labourers to do the inside insulation and sheet plasterboard so it's maybe not a great deal of extra work to bundle onto that.

 

Although a labourer is going to be cheap, you would need to monitor that they fit the insulation well.

 

Personally I think insulation is a job you either get done in a factory in an automated process or alternatively you fit yourself, time consuming but as it's my house the attention to detail  matters most to me.

[Cpd]

6 hours ago, Thedreamer said:

Personally I think insulation is a job you either get done in a factory in an automated process or alternatively you fit yourself, time consuming but as it's my house the attention to detail  matters most to me.

Completely agree, it’s such an important part of the build process and so very easy to do badly........ 

[Nick1c]

If you are fitting insulation between timbers on site I would have thought that push fit (mineral or wood fibre batts) or blown/sprayed (cellulose, icythene or eps) would give the best chance of it performing to spec. (& be quicker).  If the U-value needs improving then put rigid stuff over the top. A good job between timbers with PUR would take ages. 

[DonGillies]

It will be a big job to insulate it and to do it so it’s all a tight fit. I’ve just purchased this Festool Insulation saw to make the job a whole lot easier.

 

I will possibly continue building houses afeter my house is complete so thought I would get the use from it again. It’s expesive at £550 but worth it in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

[Thedreamer]

On 26/02/2019 at 06:35, Nick1c said:

If you are fitting insulation between timbers on site I would have thought that push fit (mineral or wood fibre batts) or blown/sprayed (cellulose, icythene or eps) would give the best chance of it performing to spec. (& be quicker).  If the U-value needs improving then put rigid stuff over the top. A good job between timbers with PUR would take ages. 

 

Yes that true I'm using Frametherm and PUR over the walls.

 

In other areas such as the rafters going for PUR because of the better thermal performance. I think I would need to have larger rafters or a warm roof to use frametherm there.

 

It does take ages to cut PUR and fit well but if your planning to be in your house for possibly the rest of your life, if it takes a little longer into the evenings/weekend does it really make a difference?

 

[divorcingjack]

We're in Scotland, with a cellulose filled MBC frame. You're welcome to come and visit and chat over our experience if you're close? 

 

We didn't even get as far as a quote with Scotframe, as I very much did not enjoy the casual misogyny of their patronising salesman. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by divorcingjack

[eandg]

On 28/02/2019 at 14:04, divorcingjack said:

We're in Scotland, with a cellulose filled MBC frame. You're welcome to come and visit and chat over our experience if you're close? 

 

We didn't even get as far as a quote with Scotframe, as I very much did not enjoy the casual misogyny of their patronising salesman. 

Thanks, whereabouts are you? 

[divorcingjack]

We're in St. Andrews, Fife

[eandg]

7 hours ago, divorcingjack said:

We're in St. Andrews, Fife

Okay thanks, we'll maybe give you a shout at some point! Hoping to get moving and get quotes from a few kit manufacturers asap so we can get plans in for compliance. 

 

I see MBC do passive slab and timber frame with erection, which is all presumably zero-rated for VAT? Do they also do building regs drawings? And are your windows, doors (and some insulation - I see they do an open panel system) factory fitted? 

[pulhamdown]

On 28/02/2019 at 14:04, divorcingjack said:

We didn't even get as far as a quote with Scotframe, as I very much did not enjoy the casual misogyny of their patronising salesman. 

Sounds like you met the same idiot as me in the Dundee office.  He tried to put us off specifying a lot of insulation, saying it was a waste of money.  Unfortunately, that chimes with my experience of salesmen in general.  A total waste of space.  Much better to find out about products for yourself.  BTW, our Scotframe house is everything we wanted, despite his best efforts!