Local vs non-local, but specialist, trades

[Nick1c]

Living at the end of the country, surrounded by sea on 3 sides is great, but does have drawbacks. One of these is a limited number of local tradespeople with specialist skills in relatively niche areas due to the lack of a sufficient population to support them. I have chosen to build what I hope will be an airtight, well insulated house using I- beams & warmcell with MVHR & as efficient a heating/cooling/hot water system as I can manage. This, I suspect in common with the rest of the country, isn't a common approach so I think it will be difficult to find experienced trades  locally. 

I will have the option of :

Importing  the labour,  with the upside of getting an experienced & efficient worker, and the downsides of having the person responsible a long way away if something goes wrong, not supporting my local economy and paying travel & accommodation expenses. 

Using local trades who will be slower as they are 'learning on the job' (& time is money...), but nearby if/when things go wrong & I will be supporting the local economy. 

I would dearly like to use a single contractor for M&E as it will avoid the 'it's not my fault, it's ..(insert another trade)' circular arguments, but I think this will provide the greatest challenge locally. 

What have others done and how did it turn out?

[joe90]

I think I am not far from you, I am near Bude. I have done it, mostly by being on this forum and gaining shed loads of info from others. I am lucky though in that I found a local builder open to Modern techniques.

[nod]

If local arnt available You need to look further afield 

BUT be careful unless they come as part of a build package you could get stung 

My experience of the Easten Europeans is that they will have a go at anything But you don’t want someone gaining experience on your job 

In saying that I’ve two Ukrainians that have worked for me for over ten years and they are fine

But they get the same wages as everyone else and more importantly They are settled in Manchester and have families.

A lot closer than chasing them in the Ukraine If there’s a cock up 

 

[vivienz]

In my case, I don't think I would have stood a chance of getting the team I wanted together locally in North Dorset and I went off piste for my slab, timber frame and M&E.  All the rest of my trades are local, though, and they've been great.  I have worked on the basis that if you get your expert team in for the specialist work, you're drastically reducing the chances of anything going wrong in the first place.

[Jeremy Harris]

I agree wholeheartedly with @vivienz

 

I opted to use a very non-local (at the time) contractor for our foundation and house build; they were based in Tipperary at the time and the team, and the whole house and garage, came over on the ferry to build our house.  Best decision I made in the whole build, as not only did they do a cracking job, but the guys had nothing else to do whilst they were over here except build our house.

 

Having contractors not turn up for a few days, because they've got another job on, seems commonplace.  By using a contractor that's coming from a fair way away you remove that issue.

[Nick1c]

A brief update on my experiences to date. 

Slab design: not local (Hilliard Tanner) - good value, responsive, worked well. 
 

Frame design and supply : not local, slow, not cheap (I don’t know enough to opine on value), long delays once we were tied in, have been helpful since it went up. 

 

Windows: not local, the supplier was knowledgeable & helpful, the fitters an utter nightmare (come the revolution....).

M&E: tried not local - paid up front for what I have been told was a ‘detailed quote’, I got a top line cost of over £55k (for a 185m2, 3 bath house) inc. £11.5k project management & expenses!! No heat loss calcs, equipment specifications etc. This excluded electrics.... So far local tradesmen/companies have seemed ok & much cheaper. Non-local MVHR design & supply not bad so far. Everything else has been local. 
 

My conclusion is that it depends, & that as for most of us this is a one time experience an awful lot of luck (good or bad) is involved. 
 

There has been an awful lot of stress & delays so far - Covid hasn’t helped, but I suspect it is par for the course. The two ‘contributors’  that have been dishonest charlatans are the window fitters & the M&E ‘consultant’, both of whom I have subsequently discovered have been or are being taken to court by dissatisfied clients. I suppose that in the end there is no easy answer, but several recommendations from satisfied clients with completed jobs is a minimum requirement & one I failed to get in both cases. 

 

The other big issue is that as a one time buyer of services you will inevitably be a relatively low priority for trades, particularly if they are busy (& the good ones generally are, even in normal times). I find the balance of pushing hard enough to get things done, but not so hard it puts them off difficult to achieve. 
 

A prompt, reliable, good value local solution would be the dream....... but sadly it remains that. 

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

Reading your post @Nick1c , I found myself nodding in agreement at every point. 

 

Especially the one where a failure to do due diligience was at the root of a problem. Coincidentally, we also suffered from two charlatans , at least one of whom I know for sure is still operating in plain sight. The fault was principally mine, I didn't do the due diligence.  In one case, a bit of digging would have uncovered CCJs and more than a few unhappy customers.

Thats the trouble when your basic instinct is to trust people until you find evidence to the contrary.

 

And as for 

Quote

...as a buyer of services you will inevitably be a relatively low priority for trades ...

 

How right you are. It took me so long to learn that lesson. Thats why being in on the local  ' network '  is so important. Just one tradesman introduced me to several other trades, all of whom are doing exactly what they say they will, when they they say they will.

 

A stark, healing contrast to recent encounters with charlatans.

 

 

 

[Onoff]

On 22/08/2020 at 19:40, Nick1c said:

A brief update on my experiences to date. 

Slab design: not local (Hilliard Tanner) - good value, responsive, worked well. 
 

Frame design and supply : not local, slow, not cheap (I don’t know enough to opine on value), long delays once we were tied in, have been helpful since it went up. 

 

Windows: not local, the supplier was knowledgeable & helpful, the fitters an utter nightmare (come the revolution....).

M&E: tried not local - paid up front for what I have been told was a ‘detailed quote’, I got a top line cost of over £55k (for a 185m2, 3 bath house) inc. £11.5k project management & expenses!! No heat loss calcs, equipment specifications etc. This excluded electrics.... So far local tradesmen/companies have seemed ok & much cheaper. Non-local MVHR design & supply not bad so far. Everything else has been local. 
 

My conclusion is that it depends, & that as for most of us this is a one time experience an awful lot of luck (good or bad) is involved. 
 

There has been an awful lot of stress & delays so far - Covid hasn’t helped, but I suspect it is par for the course. The two ‘contributors’  that have been dishonest charlatans are the window fitters & the M&E ‘consultant’, both of whom I have subsequently discovered have been or are being taken to court by dissatisfied clients. I suppose that in the end there is no easy answer, but several recommendations from satisfied clients with completed jobs is a minimum requirement & one I failed to get in both cases. 

 

The other big issue is that as a one time buyer of services you will inevitably be a relatively low priority for trades, particularly if they are busy (& the good ones generally are, even in normal times). I find the balance of pushing hard enough to get things done, but not so hard it puts them off difficult to achieve. 
 

A prompt, reliable, good value local solution would be the dream....... but sadly it remains that. 

 

 

 

A couple of things jumped out reading that...

 

"paid up front & "I failed to get in both cases". 

 

Did you get 3 like for like quotes for the "£55k" job? If you've taken umbrage with one supplier and not gotten others for comparison etc. What does getting separate trades tot up to? Then if there's an issue where does responsibility lie?

 

I'm aware of a number of M&E consultants who provide a draft specification then firm up if and when they get the job. It stops the prospective client touting the detailed spec around in the hope of getting a cheaper price sometimes when they want a brandy job but have only got Babycham money.

[PeterW]

26 minutes ago, Onoff said:

I'm aware of a number of M&E consultants who provide a draft specification then firm up if and when they get the job. It stops the prospective client touting the detailed spec around in the hope of getting a cheaper price sometimes when they want a brandy job but have only got Babycham money.

Funny you say that - I’ve done similar in the past and provided high level details and I was once told that a detailed spec should be in my “cost of sales” as we couldn’t win every job .... and yet that was a potential customer who challenged the spec on every single component of an extension, then went with another builder.
 

Why should any trade invest in your designs that essentially can be used by another supplier unless you pay for them up front ..? Design work is expensive and even more so on bespoke projects where things aren’t cookie cutter / copy paste / specs and yet there is an expectation that you have one off the shelf for a “325sqm split level 5 bed 3 bath dog shower house with eco credentials” and you can just bung it in the post with a first class stamp ... 

[Nickfromwales]

Reading your posts @PeterW and @Onoff, I found myself nodding in agreement at every point. 

 

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, Nickfromwales said:

Reading your posts @PeterW and @Onoff, I found myself nodding in agreement at every point. 

 

 

Makes a change from nodding off reading my posts...

 

Many years ago in my game, the Europeans were streets ahead of the game in terms of technology, especially the Germans (tbh only the Germans, their kit pi$$ed all even the Swiss stuff). One of our English competitors, we'll call them "A" was an agent for German kit but on the back of years of dealing with them came up with their own product, borrowing somewhat from the German design. Ties were then cut with their German supplier.

 

Now we often used to get asked in tenders to supply "all manufacture drawings". It never happened, not one single time. Nobody in the game even entertained it. One day 3 tenderers were asked to quote and as usual a clause asked for all the manufacture drawings. By complete accident a CAD technician at firm A burnt all the manufacture drawings for their flagship machine onto CD and it got sent in with the quote.

 

Now the client favoured firm B and simply gave firm A's CD to them. Firm B, overnight, made a technological leap. 

 

 

 

 

[jack]

On 22/08/2020 at 19:40, Nick1c said:

Windows: not local, the supplier was knowledgeable & helpful, the fitters an utter nightmare (come the revolution....).

 

Exactly the same experience we had.

 

What is it with window fitters? I thought "oh my god, the windows!" just happened on Grand Designs, but it happened to us, and has happened time and again to others I know on this site and elsewhere.

[Onoff]

Just now, jack said:

 

Exactly the same experience we had.

 

What is it with window fitters? I thought "oh my god, the windows!" just happened on Grand Designs, but it happened to us, and has happened time and again to others I know on this site and elsewhere.

 

Is it that the product has improved but the window fitters haven't? Guys used to fitting 2G windows in the boom days with inch gaps all round for speed, get onto the next job like something out of White Gold. No Compriband and or expanding foam just some pvcu trim to make it look pretty. Certainly the experience I've had given what I'm coming across. 

 

Along comes 3G with the client hoping for it all to be airtight and it's the same bodgers as ever just working with a better product, charging more and not caring. 

[Nick1c]

@Onoff it didn’t take too much thought to decide not to go with the M&E quote, it was definitely aimed at the Crystal end of the market. What really irks me is that people charge hundreds of pounds as an upfront ‘signing on fee’ and deliver nothing more than a few lines of (very generous) costs with no rationale/ support for them & try to justify it as a ‘detailed high level quote’. This was accompanied by a ‘book early to avoid disappointment’ style offer for battery storage which smacked of pressure selling & further put me off. 
The heating supplier I went with was upfront about charging for heat loss calcs & for that provided the information - a much more professional approach. 
With regard to the windows my assumption was that the supplier had done adequate due diligence. They succeeded in pulling the wool over their eyes, much to both our regret. 

[jack]

On 24/08/2020 at 12:54, Onoff said:

Is it that the product has improved but the window fitters haven't?

 

I think in general that's right, but in our case, 90% of the problems were caused by the experienced installers failing to appreciate a couple of important construction details shown on the drawings they were given. Unfortunately, their oversights weren't noticed until it was far too late, and we had to go back and bodge solutions on the fly.

[joth]

On 24/08/2020 at 16:16, Nick1c said:

@Onoff it didn’t take too much thought to decide not to go with the M&E quote, it was definitely aimed at the Crystal end of the market. What really irks me is that people charge hundreds of pounds as an upfront ‘signing on fee’ and deliver nothing more than a few lines of (very generous) costs with no rationale/ support for them & try to justify it as a ‘detailed high level quote’. This was accompanied by a ‘book early to avoid disappointment’ style offer for battery storage which smacked of pressure selling & further put me off. 

 

As a "custom builder", sorting out M&E design has been the biggest "surprise" challenge of our project too. We were trying to get a design done for the  PHPP "design approval" phase, and to use for project tendering, but most suppliers I spoke to only wanted to do it as part of a complete "design supply and install" package. This is complicated because until you've tendered for main contractor you don't really know how much to lock yourself into a specific supply/install package, and also the size of the "deposit" needed for the design phase was so high you can't help but feel they can then design as costly a system as they want, change whatever they want for install, and you're locked in to take it as you've already paid so much up front.

 

For example, this is what one local company quoted for their design only fee, refundable if proceeding to supply+install: 

• ASHP: £2,187 +VAT
• MVHR: £1,738 +VAT
• UFH: £1,355 +VAT
• PV: £988 +VAT

Except for PV, that's more than many people here spend on complete installed systems!

 

In the end we used enhabit for a stand alone M&E design (including all the PHPP input data) for £750 , which we're using as the basis although shopping around for various parts of it, which was far more than I'd have considered spending at the outset, but has had quite a bit of use over the last year+, and given some of the other horror stories I've heard since, I'm fairly happy with this approach.

 

 

Our architect (newly PH certified) has tried different approaches on 4 subsequent PH certified designs and says it's a pain whichever route they go. No wonder architects start bringing the M&E in house. If I gave up my day job, I'd be half tempted to train up on this and go into partnership with them on it, as I do find it some of the most interesting pieces of the project.

 

[Thorfun]

7 hours ago, joth said:

In the end we used enhabit for a stand alone M&E design (including all the PHPP input data) for £750....

this is interesting. I was quoted £1100 +VAT for just the MVHR design from them and the Mechanical Service Design is £1500 + VAT! (PHPP modelling was also £1500 + VAT)

 

your negotiating skills must be top notch (or mine are just s%*t ?‍♂️). 

 

but, in saying that, their quote for the hardware for the MVHR is very competitive and seem very helpful on the phone so they're still a consideration for me. I guess sometimes you have to pay to get good quality information and design as I can't do everything myself. at least not if I want to be in the house before I get so old I can't walk up the stairs!

[joth]

No negotiation! I got prices 2 years ago so things may have changed. The MVHR was 25% deposit for the detailed design but I was fine with that as the sizing had already been done and final price fixed. (as it turned out, they'd used price list for the wrong system and only discovered that at the very end, so prices did go up but only in line with what they're quoting other friends for the same correctly priced system, so I sucked that up)

 

The M&E they possibly realized they'd under charged for, especially when I had to remind them they'd included PHPP inputs in the price (not the full model, just the data for the heating &dhw pages of it).

I imagine it takes up a heck of a lot of time their side, as anyone like me that's been on here will be back and forth with 50 questions about ASHP cooling modes, control systems, performance of different coolants, what brand are the circulation pumps and manifold actuators, how to future proof for fan coil cooling, etc etc etc. All of which they were  helpful looking into and responding on. (Vs the other company who quoted, where they only deal in Nibe and didn't seem interested in any variations beyond their "standard" design)

 

[Thorfun]

54 minutes ago, joth said:

No negotiation! I got prices 2 years ago so things may have changed. The MVHR was 25% deposit for the detailed design but I was fine with that as the sizing had already been done and final price fixed. (as it turned out, they'd used price list for the wrong system and only discovered that at the very end, so prices did go up but only in line with what they're quoting other friends for the same correctly priced system, so I sucked that up)

 

The M&E they possibly realized they'd under charged for, especially when I had to remind them they'd included PHPP inputs in the price (not the full model, just the data for the heating &dhw pages of it).

I imagine it takes up a heck of a lot of time their side, as anyone like me that's been on here will be back and forth with 50 questions about ASHP cooling modes, control systems, performance of different coolants, what brand are the circulation pumps and manifold actuators, how to future proof for fan coil cooling, etc etc etc. All of which they were  helpful looking into and responding on. (Vs the other company who quoted, where they only deal in Nibe and didn't seem interested in any variations beyond their "standard" design)

 

thanks @joth. this is great information. Enhabit are certainly top of my list at the moment for MVHR. I'm currently debating whether to get them to design the M&E or getting the relevant trades to do their individual bit, e.g. the plumber to design the heating system, solar pv company to design that, Wunda to design the UFH etc...

[Nick1c]

I went for Enhabit for the MVHR, Wunda for the UFH & a couple of local-ish (within 2hrs) companies for solar & the ASHP. The ASHP company uses a local fitter who is also doing my plumbing. Being a mile away from lands end limits my choices somewhat vs a more central location! The supply of available skilled labour is another major issue, amplified by the surge in work following the lockdown. 
So far no major issues, but I will only be able to give a definitive opinion once we have been in for a while, a state of affairs that is a few months away. 
 

It is worth re-emphasising the value of references from customers who have had work completed. In my case I paid too much attention to a contractors internet presence & the views of someone who had had their work started, but not completed & nothing had yet hit the fan (it eventually did, they wound up in court & got a  CCJ in their favour). I lost a few hundred pounds, other less ‘fortunate’ individuals either lost or spent a lot of time & emotional energy chasing thousands.