PeterW Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 And National Tool Hire was £45 for the weekend when I checked - price is PoA but would haggle anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 15 minutes ago, PeterW said: And National Tool Hire was £45 for the weekend when I checked - price is PoA but would haggle anyway. Just looked. Not one too close but seems they deliver. Thinking about the works one it's only going to cost me fuel for a 50mile round trip and I can keep it for as long as I need probably. Just need to collect before 07.00 or after 22.00 due to the Congestion Charge. Might even be able to wangle one of the works vans to do it one way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 I didn't even think to look if these 2 22mm ball valves I've introduced into the single pipe system are full bore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Onoff said: I didn't even think to look if these 2 22mm ball valves I've introduced into the single pipe system are full bore... If that’s a 22mm valve, then maybe a regular bore as full bore tend to be ‘fatter’ at the valve body ( usually wider than the nuts on the end ). That appears to be about the same ? I’ll dig one out of the van tomorrow to have a comparison. Edited October 31, 2020 by Nickfromwales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Nickfromwales said: If that’s a 22mm valve, then maybe a regular bore as full bore tend to be ‘fatter’ at the valve body ( usually wider than the nuts on the end ). That appears to be about the same ? A problem on the single pipe system d'you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Those Ross valves are about 14/15mm max bore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, PeterW said: Those Ross valves are about 14/15mm max bore. Change them do you reckon? Thinking it might impede the flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Anything will impede flow - what are they controlling ..?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 20 minutes ago, PeterW said: Anything will impede flow - what are they controlling ..?? They are just in a run of the 3/4" nominal bore single pipe system between the 1st and second radiators. About 5m apart. It's this 5m run I was looking to fit a low loss header to feed a manifold for my UFH loop in the bathroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 Thinking about it I do have x4 22mm ball valves on the CH system at various points that I've introduced, at various points & of unknown bore. I'll try and sketch out the abortion of pipework I have here sometine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 I don't mind changing the x4 22mm valves here just to make sure they're full bore. Looking at these at SF but one review says they don't think they're quite full bore. https://www.screwfix.com/p/lever-ball-valve-red-22mm/38468? If the Ross ones aren't full bore then that's only the two I have to change. This other one (not Ross brand) I think might be full bore (leak all fixed now btw): Then this, same make I think as the above: Just wondering if I can search my Screwfix purchase history by category. They probably came from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 FYI, those types of valves I rarely fit on heating systems unless I’ve specifically ordered full bore. Use hundreds on potable water ( mains pressurised systems not gravity ) as on pumped or gravity there should be little or no resistance. But, if the heating was working before, it should work after too, so a bit stranger. The pump you changed out, that was a different head pump 25 x vs 15/60 ( 60 denotes 6m head ) so I doubt the replacement pump is up fit much as it’s an UFH circulator and knows it will never be asked to pump one up one down etc. Google the spec as the pics are blurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said: FYI, those types of valves I rarely fit on heating systems unless I’ve specifically ordered full bore. Use hundreds on potable water ( mains pressurised systems not gravity ) as on pumped or gravity there should be little or no resistance. But, if the heating was working before, it should work after too, so a bit stranger. The pump you changed out, that was a different head pump 25 x vs 15/60 ( 60 denotes 6m head ) so I doubt the replacement pump is up fit much as it’s an UFH circulator and knows it will never be asked to pump one up one down etc. Google the spec as the pics are blurry. Lucky I went and checked up in the loft. The leak on the pump valve has gotten worse, much worse. Sod's Law the replacement pump valves turned up after I think it was the second drain down! I'm going to try and manage the leak until next weekend when I drain down again to change the rad and drain off the cleaner in the system. I'll do the pump valves then. Guessing the 2L of cleaner might be doing its thing and finding little leaks. Maybe there's a way I could change the pump valves now without too much mess? It's valve 'B' leaking. Rough sketch of what I have. As for the pump itself, this the original: Then the replacement: I can't find the spec for this black one on the Grundfoss site at all. The part number just doesn't come up. Elsewhere though it appears to have been replaced by their Alpha model due to "EUP" regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 That 25-60 is more powerful but not by much TBH as you have a balance valve with the tank I would be binning the mid position and replacing it with a 2 port and that way you are simplifying the controls, other option is W Plan and a diverter valve. As you’re on oil the time the DHW runs is irrelevant to cost so why not set that to 4:30-6am then put heat on from 6-7:30 and they won’t be fighting.? And no idea what that air separator is doing but I bet it’s sludged up ... where does the heating return back into the boiler return out of interest ..?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 2 hours ago, PeterW said: That 25-60 is more powerful but not by much TBH as you have a balance valve with the tank I would be binning the mid position and replacing it with a 2 port and that way you are simplifying the controls, other option is W Plan and a diverter valve. As you’re on oil the time the DHW runs is irrelevant to cost so why not set that to 4:30-6am then put heat on from 6-7:30 and they won’t be fighting.? And no idea what that air separator is doing but I bet it’s sludged up ... where does the heating return back into the boiler return out of interest ..?? You can’t change to all 2-port !! Oil boiler needs an always open overrun path. Good point. Isn’t the air separator where the F&E tee’s in? Forgot about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 2 hours ago, PeterW said: That 25-60 is more powerful but not by much TBH as you have a balance valve with the tank I would be binning the mid position and replacing it with a 2 port and that way you are simplifying the controls, other option is W Plan and a diverter valve. As you’re on oil the time the DHW runs is irrelevant to cost so why not set that to 4:30-6am then put heat on from 6-7:30 and they won’t be fighting.? And no idea what that air separator is doing but I bet it’s sludged up ... where does the heating return back into the boiler return out of interest ..?? Good to know ref the pump, thanks. Seems to be running alright. I've added where the ds & us CH returns: This then is the upstairs CH: & the downstairs. The run of plastic 22mm is where I want to break into and fit the low loss header: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 17 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: Good point. Isn’t the air separator where the F&E tee’s in? Forgot about that. Yes, the air separator tees in as the first thing in the 28mm pipe from the boiler. Then the F&E feed after that, then the pump. Pipe comes from the top of the air separator and just loops over the F&E tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 39 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: You can’t change to all 2-port !! Oil boiler needs an always open overrun path. So he’s screwed then as of the heating goes to the MPV as priority then he’s got a pair of 2 ports right behind it ..... Diverter it is then ..! I recon that lazy mid position set up won’t be helping circulation on the single circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 3 hours ago, PeterW said: So he’s screwed then as of the heating goes to the MPV as priority then he’s got a pair of 2 ports right behind it ..... Diverter it is then ..! I recon that lazy mid position set up won’t be helping circulation on the single circuit. I'm a bit lost...as I understand it the mid position valve allows CH, HW or both? Upstairs and downstairs have their own thermostat. Why is the mid position "lazy"? All 3 valves are pretty new and Honeywell btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 Mid position means the water will take the route is least resistance. So the coil is most likely as the resistance on a coil is very low hence the balance valve to increase pressure on the rad circuits. Volume of water in the rad circuit will be far more than the DHW so will still prioritise the tank in effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 27 minutes ago, PeterW said: Mid position means the water will take the route is least resistance. So the coil is most likely as the resistance on a coil is very low hence the balance valve to increase pressure on the rad circuits. Volume of water in the rad circuit will be far more than the DHW so will still prioritise the tank in effect. No ideas how to set the balancing valve. It's 5 full turns from fully open to shut to I've put it at 2 1/2 turns open. So the pump presents to port AB on the mid position valve. It can either port to A only for CH, B only for HW via the tank coil or both ports for CH & HW at the same time. You're saying I think that when doing both CH & HW it gives priority to port B (HW)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 Yeh I think the lower resistance of the coil (what floor is it on ..?) will offer less resistance than the rad circuits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 20 minutes ago, PeterW said: Yeh I think the lower resistance of the coil (what floor is it on ..?) will offer less resistance than the rad circuits. The hot water cylinder (thus coil) is on the 1st floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 How close to the boiler ..? All 22/28mm pipe ..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, PeterW said: How close to the boiler ..? All 22/28mm pipe ..? It's nom 7m from the top of the boiler, up through into the eaves, then along through the air separator, pump, mid port to the coil. All in 28mm copper. Return the same run pretty much, again all in 28mm copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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