Sunamp container bulging

[Onoff]

4 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

and anyone who’s having units fitted by a good looking bloke can rest assured they’ll be fitted correctly and in accordance with the most recent addendum. 

 

What about if you fit it?

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

I can hold the good looking guys blowlamp. 

?

[Onoff]

52 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

I can hold the good looking guys blowlamp. 

?

 

Steady with the euphemisms...family show and all that... 

 

 

Seriously, if the bulging doesn't affect the operation then all good. Better it bulges out than in and breaks something. It is though imo hugely annoying. At worst they'll lose potential customers to an alternative technology at best the customers might delay purchase until the issue is sorted. 

 

Must admit my first thought stemmed from dealing with swollen capacitors and lead acid batteries.....

[scottishjohn]

so long as they are proactive and sort each problem at first attempt --then that fine with me --but don,t want to see same issues being talked about next year .It,s just  good business on their part to do so 

[Jeremy Harris]

TBH, it's only a cosmetic thing, anyway, so it's never going to impact on performance or reliability.  It's a bit like making a fuss because the sprayed foam on the outside of a DHW cylinder is a bit rough looking, or needs trimming around pipe connections. 

 

As an example, I bought two Newark tanks, both double thickness spray foamed, and both needed insulation trimming around pipe connections during installation.  I suspect that I'm far from alone in finding that I couldn't get fittings on without a judicious bit of trimming with a sharp knife, and Newark have been around making cylinders like this for decades.

[NSS]

Simple fix, remove the neoprene and fit Actis Hybris instead 

Edited November 18, 2018 by NSS

[Onoff]

Look at the attention to detail and quality of some people's builds here! They ARE not going to be happy even if it is a cosmetic detail. I'm a rough bugger and I wouldn't!

[Jeremy Harris]

14 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Look at the attention to detail and quality of some people's builds here! They ARE not going to be happy even if it is a cosmetic detail. I'm a rough bugger and I wouldn't!

 

So far we have ONE Sunamp with a very badly distorted top panel, and that one may be due to a problem specific to that unit, based on what @Nickfromwales has said.  My Sunamp had a very slight bulge (see the photo I posted earlier, you can just about see it if you look closely) and that went away when I re-trimmed the insulation so that it was a better fit.

 

The question is really is this an endemic problem or just a minor issue that will be resolved easily?  I'm inclined to the view that it's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned, as my unit looks to be fine now. 

[jack]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

The question is really is this an endemic problem or just a minor issue that will be resolved easily?  

 

My impression is that some people are concerned that what looks like a strange oversight is still in existence, even if only on a small number of units.  

 

This is especially concerning if Sunamp-trained people aren't getting the installation right. It may be that people's fears are unfounded, but if a minor problem still recurs long after it's been identified, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to explore what, if anything, this says about the product or the manufacturer. As someone said, if your washing machine developed a bulge after installation, you'd be concerned no matter how trivial an issue it was or how easy it was to fix.

 

I think we can all see from the discussion that it's a minor issue in the scheme of things, but why is it happening at all? You say yourself that they've probably crammed too much into the space allocated. So why haven't they redesigned it to avoid this problem? Again, there may be a good answer, but the question isn't unreasonable.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, jack said:

Again, there may be a good answer, but the question isn't unreasonable.

+1. 

[scottishjohn]

yes we hope its minor --but i question why this expansion +contraction of the internals has not been allowed for in the case  construction that contains the active ingredients--

could this be the chineese involvment trying to slim down costs?

anyway time will tell

-how long is the warranty ?

[Jeremy Harris]

8 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

yes we hope its minor --but i question why this expansion +contraction of the internals has not been allowed for in the case  construction that contains the active ingredients--

could this be the chineese involvment trying to slim down costs?

anyway time will tell

-how long is the warranty ?

 

 

In my case the "internals" haven't moved at all, there is no "expansion and contraction" causing this, AFAICS.  It's a dead simple case of the insulation (which is closed cell neoprene foam) being too tight for the available space. 

 

Not at all sure where "chineese involvement" comes in with regard to this either, as the construction method and insulation looks to be very similar to that of the Sunamp PV, with regard to the insulation, cell design etc.  The difference is that the Sunamp PV insulation wasn't such a tight fit in the case.

[newhome]

They are still made at the Sunamp factory in Macmerry AFAIK. That may change in the future but won’t impact those units on the ground now. 

[scottishjohn]

you already said that expansion and contraction of internals was classed as normal by SA --

 1" bend in lid is no small amount of expansion  in percentage terms + neopryene rubber don,t squish very easy 

1 hour ago, newhome said:

They are still made at the Sunamp factory in Macmerry AFAIK. That may change in the future but won’t impact those units on the ground now. 

 but where are the cases for the PCM units made? -

again time will tell  -I,ll just wait and hope i,m  wrong 

It,s just 40 years in motor trade working with car makers  you defintely get a very jaded view of things that makers say are "normal" or "acceptable"

they used to call it "tombstone technology" in the aircraft industry  at the beginning of jet liners -wings vibrating then work hardeneing and falling off. LOL

Edited November 19, 2018 by scottishjohn

[Dudda]

Mine is in pretty bad shape too. The top is completely mangled but the sides are now too. This is actually a good day. It's been a lot worse and yes like @JSHarris  it was obvious to me the insulation had to be cut to fit the pipes which was done. It's working fine but can't say I'm happy. My pressure gauge reads 1.5 bar, I've the expansion vessel and a pressure release valve so not worried personally. It's more the other half and my Dad which thinks it's going to explode.

 

 

[Barney12]

At the end of the day anybody installing 'new technology' (and that's not just Sunamp) need to accept that their is something of a 'early adopter' curve.

 

Its how the company/supplier deal with these issues which then becomes paramount. If they fail to be open, honest and transparent with those of us who are early adopters then their credibility will fail quickly.

 

As far as I can see most people on this forum are comfortable with that early adopter pain which is why we're self building 'non-standard' (and by that I mean self building non-mass market homes).

 

My only other comment is that Sunamp do appear to have entered a 'consumer ready' phase (if you look at their marketing etc) so they can no longer rely on the acceptance factor that comes from people such as Jeremy (and others). You VERY rarely get two shots at the consumer market.

 

 

[Ed Davies]

11 minutes ago, Barney12 said:

At the end of the day anybody installing 'new technology' (and that's not just Sunamp) need to accept that their is something of a 'early adopter' curve.

 

This. People are so used to products which are only small incremental changes relative to existing technology and are sold to huge markets that they're largely shielded from how much of engineering is “suck-it-and-see” learning. It's difficult for small firms making products in relatively small quantities to sell into a consumer market to get the right balance between presenting it as for early-adopters and a mass-market product. Just to ramp up to decent production levels which have any hope of making money they're pressured to move to mass-market quickly but it's easy for that to backfire if there's any glitch along the way. I think there's a need to be a bit more nuanced about the continuum from science-fair project to high-street product both on the part of the sellers and in the minds of the buyers.

[Jeremy Harris]

2 hours ago, Dudda said:

Mine is in pretty bad shape too. The top is completely mangled but the sides are now too. This is actually a good day. It's been a lot worse and yes like @JSHarris  it was obvious to me the insulation had to be cut to fit the pipes which was done. It's working fine but can't say I'm happy. My pressure gauge reads 1.5 bar, I've the expansion vessel and a pressure release valve so not worried personally. It's more the other half and my Dad which thinks it's going to explode.

 

 

There are two important differences between yours and mine.  Mine has tie rods running front to back to stop the sides bulging, and my lid has a flange all around, so that it sits like a biscuit tin lid on the top.  If you look at this photo you can see the screws holding the tie rods across the top of the cell and the flange on the lid:

 

 

It seems clear that Sunamp are making incremental improvements to address the bulging issue, and with one or two minor changes I think they will have solved it.  Mine now has a flat top after trimming more of the insulation out and pre-bending the lid to a slight curve in the opposite direction in order to push the centre of the neoprene insulation down first, so it can spread outwards as it compresses.

 

You have the older style lid that mine was supplied with, but which was replaced free of charge by Sunamp a couple of days after my unit was delivered.

[scottishjohn]

I had a good talk with sunamp this afternoon asking questions and getting some sensible answers about things 

I got the impression that ALL units would be upgraded very soon  and they assure me they are on top of the problem .

If you think they missed you I would email them  ,they do reply to emails fairly promptly 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

5 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

I had a good talk with sunamp this afternoon asking questions and getting some sensible answers about things 

I got the impression that ALL units would be upgraded very soon  and they assure me they are on top of the problem .

If you think they missed you I would email them  ,they do reply to emails fairly promptly 

 

 

I had the same chat today. Work is very much 'in progress'  

[readiescards]

Just learnt mine bulging PCM58 Sunamp unit is to be replaced with one with an upgraded case, additional insulation and internal strapping.  Another day's plumbing labour too ?

[Eileen]

Just found our fairly newly installed UNIQ eDUAL12 bulging. It's a hands-off self-build (that is, not getting our hands dirty!), which we aren't quite moved into so we are using excellent plumbers to install them by following the manuals and our biggest issue has been the lack of a technical support function at SA that people like this can talk to. In fact communications in general have been an issue all along - not always the lack of it, although that's quote common, but often a repeated failure to answer direct questions. 

[Jeremy Harris]

Trimming the top insulation and fitting the new style lid that has flanges on all sides will fix that easily.  You already have the bracing bars fitted to the case.  It's maybe ten to fifteen minutes work to remove the flat lid, trim the top insulation and fit the new lid.  Sunamp will send a new lid for free I'm sure - they sent mine within a couple of days of my Sunamp being delivered.

[Eileen]

Thanks - and we clocked your lid from this very useful topic, so will be asking for a new lid on Monday. We're a (hopefully) certified Passivhaus heated by low temp underfloor and have two Dual 4 PCM34s alongside the 12, heated by a low temp Daikin and primarily used for pre-heating the water heading for the 12 which is solar/electric heated, but also for the underfloor subject to some issues being clarified. One thing we were trying to find out, so far unsuccessfully, is whether Sunamp have any similar deployments, but maybe some one here will have a similar set-up.

[Jeremy Harris]

It's hard to get really good data, which is a pity for those of us who would like to understand/model an installation.  I only discovered yesterday that our Sunamp UniQ eHW 9 was set so that it didn't accept any charge at all until it had discharged down to 90% depleted (10% remaining).  That was only because it was bright and sunny yesterday morning and I happened to go into the services room shortly after we'd run two showers, to find that we were generating loads of excess PV yet the Sunamp wasn't accepting any charge.

 

A quick email to Sunamp discovered the reason for this; our controller was set to not accept charge until the unit was 90% depleted, which is not a great setting in winter, when trying to store every last bit of surplus PV generation.  I've changed the setting so that it now starts accepting charge from 50% depletion, but would far rather have an option to increase that so that the Sunamp will always accept charge if there is any spare storage capacity at all, as that would make a significant difference in winter, when excess PV generation is sporadic.  In effect, we're wasting half of the charge capacity of the unit, which seems a bit bonkers to me.