Storage heater replacement options

[Triassic]

My 87 yea4 old fathers just called to seek advice on options for replacing an 2.5Kw electric night storage heater that’s stopped working. My initial thoughts was another night storage heater,  What other options can you suggest?

[Dee J]

Most spares are available and storage heaters are a fairly easy fix. So mend the old one or replace with a new basic equivalent. Steer clear of the new patent expensive storage heater replacements... they're mostly snake oil with over complex controls.

Hth

Dee

[zoothorn]

Hi Triassic- can I pick-up this thread..?

 

how did you get on with a replacement? I have elderly folks 80/83 with storage heaters, & I noticed 2 were running ultra hot midnight > sillytime AM, & not warm during day. I told them to get all checked, & sure enough these 2 'broken'. I did ask folks on here, & suggestion was the 'flaps' may have stuck. So chap came out, checked all & I think said ..flap xyz on those two htrs (so you guys prolly correct), but gave them a whopping £1000+ quote to replace with new.

 

If they are shot, or folks want new ones- what are the best new alternatives: not neccessarily storage heaters maybe? I have an oil-filled "Economy-Radiator Co" in my kitchen here/ pretty good: are they forced to replace an Storage Htr with another?

 

cheers zoot

[ProDave]

The trouble now is all new heaters have to comply with LOT20 (google it) which forces them to have complicated controls to make them "more efficient" The price of new LOT20 compliant storage heaters is not cheap.

 

I fitted a LOT20 panel heater for a customer earlier in the year. A week later I removed it as the customer could not live with it's silly foibles.  I then had to search ebay for a "new old stock" non LOT20 heater which she is delighted with.

 

The old, basic storage heaters however should be repairable.  If it is just the flap not closing, that should be easy to fix.  If it is not something obvious mechanical broken, then there is a "heater" (a wire wound resistor) to give some local heat to the bimetalic strip that controls the flap, to force it to close while the heater is being charged.

 

Lastly, there are a lot of people who do not understand how to use storage heaters.  The "boost" control should be left turned down to minimum most of the time in a domestic setting, only turning it up in the evening if you are getting short of heat.

[SteamyTea]

I have basic storage heater and they are pretty simple inside.  Spares are not always cheap, so shop around for them.

You could look in the local paper for secondhand ones.  They usually go for nothing (3 in the street in PZ last week, nothing wrong with them).

Don't go for oil filled heaters, these don't store energy, they are just convection heaters.

If heat is needed in an emergency, get some cheap fan heaters.  They warm a place up very fast, are easy to move, and the noise is a reminder that they are on.

[zoothorn]

Hi chaps- useful info: but if my folks want to replace with new wall-mounted electric heaters, & fan heaters (I use- couldn't live without tbh) impractical noisy & ££ to run for a sittingroom, & new storage heaters are so damn costly (& complicated- they just cannot do complicated).. what type would you suggest, convection heaters?

[ProDave]

Although they are more expensive, I believe most of the new storage heaters also have real time convector heaters, so I suspect the confort will be better and maintain a better temperature, but probably at a higher running cost.

 

If you don't stay with storage heaters you have to question whether remaining on an off peak tariff is right for you as you will be paying more for the daytime rate.

 

An alternative which I think is better is switch to economy 10.  That gives you I think 3 off peak periods totalling 10 hours in the day, with a useful early afternoon period, so you are not asking the storage heaters to store heat for so long, so less chance of them running out of heat.

 

If you just want to fix what you have, look on ebay for identical heaters.  I did this for one of our rental properties, the ones we had were very tatty looking.  So I bought some on ebay, and got the seller to ship the heaters but not the bricks that go in them. I used the bricks from the old heaters.  No point paying loads to ship the heavy bit that you don't need.  I had first tried to buy some new ones without bricks, but nobody would sell them without.

[zoothorn]

Thanks ProDave- when it comes to the tarrifs/ economy 7 or 10.. I haven't a clue on this front: I find this more complicated than the damn heaters.

 

So with my folks, are you saying the only thing they can do IS to replace old storage heaters, with storage heaters then (s/h or new)?

 

Or would you recommend an alternative type of electric heater, if it were you?

[zoothorn]

@ProDave just looked at some YT clips of 2 repair jobs. Unbelievable simple: 1st was resetting the thermostat (5 mins), 2nd was checking elements (15mins): the repair guy in this eg repeatedly saying "customer to make sure LH dial (it opened the flap in this case) closed at night". I see the LH dial open & closes a flap above elements, to release stored heat from below. Simple- I rather like the design myself in fact.

 

Ok if the customer were to unwittingly leave this dial/ flap open (or, it is unable to go into the closed position even if dial at min) over the duration of its night time 'charging up period'.. what state would you expect the heater to be in during this period?

 

thanks zoot

 

 

[A_L]

26 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Ok if the customer were to unwittingly leave this dial/ flap open (or, it is unable to go into the closed position even if dial at min) over the duration of its night time 'charging up period'.. what state would you expect the heater to be in during this period?

 

The flap should close automatically at the start of a charge period. If it did  not you would simply be trying to fill a 'bucket with a hole in it'. The core would either never reach the temperature corresponding to the setting on the input control or it would take much more energy to do so and it would discharge continuously at a high rate. So the core would be cooler than expected at the end of the charge period.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Or would you recommend an alternative type of electric heater, if it were you?

I am not @ProDave but I use storage heaters and Economy 7

The type of tariff that you use does not change your energy use, it just allows you to time shift your usage to a time when the electricity is cheaper.

This is why storage heaters are used.  They store the energy for later, controlled release.

If you took the bricks out of a storage heater, you would be left with a normal panel heater.  Now imaging that this is a 1 kW panel heater and you need it on permanently.  This would use 24 kWh of electricity and deliver 24 kWh of thermal energy into the room.

At a normal electricity tariff of say 16p/kWh, that would be £3.84/day

Now imagine if you can store the same amount of energy and still release it at a steady state of 1 kW.  You still need 24 kWh/day, but you only get a 7 hours window to use it in.  That mean you have to charge up at a higher rate, in this case 3.4 kW.

A typical night rate for Economy 7 is 9p/kWh, so now that same energy is costing £2.16/day.

The down side to this is that rather than having a day rate at 16p/kWh, it is charged at 22p/kWh.  This is why, if on Economy 7, supplementary electric heaters are used during the day, the price seems very high.

Getting the storage heaters working correctly is quite important when it comes to price.

Storage heaters and Economy 7 have had a bad rap over the years, which I think is unfair.  If they are used incorrectly i.e. flap always open, then they are in effect just a convecting panel heater and will cool off quite quickly.  Once cool, supplementary heating is required and if that is during the day, then the price is high.  It is why we hear stories of the house being hot in the morning and cold in the evening, and very high bills.

One way to check what the balance between day and night usage is, is to look at the electricity bills or meter.  If the day readings are similar to the night readings, then the heaters need setting correctly.

As an example, nearly 90% of my electrical usage is during the night period.  I have low bills and a warm house.

Edited June 19, 2019 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

14 minutes ago, A_L said:

 

The flap should close automatically at the start of a charge period. If it did  not you would simply be trying to fill a 'bucket with a hole in it'. The core would either never reach the temperature corresponding to the setting on the input control or it would take much more energy to do so and it would discharge continuously at a high rate. So the core would be cooler than expected at the end of the charge period.

As I tried to explain, it is a local "heater"  (a wire wound resistor) that heats up and closes a bimetalic strip to shut the flap during charging.  If that resistor has goen open circuit then the flap may not close during charging.

[zoothorn]

Ok many thanks for the info SteamyTea & ProDave. Much better position to understand now. Any idea of what resistance & wattage the WW resistors tend to be Dave? It sounds like another simple fix if found to read open-circuit & needs replacing. Tbh even if an element needs replacing, even this looks easy.. an even easier test to determine if shot too. An ultra-serviceable design these look to be.

 

So is the boost dial, always the flap-mechanism open-close function on all storage heaters?

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, A_L said:

 

The flap should close automatically at the start of a charge period. If it did  not you would simply be trying to fill a 'bucket with a hole in it'. The core would either never reach the temperature corresponding to the setting on the input control or it would take much more energy to do so and it would discharge continuously at a high rate. So the core would be cooler than expected at the end of the charge period.

 

I think this is what's happening with my folks' heaters. A_L would a poor ammount of stored heat-release during the day period (heater barely warm) be the likely result of this incorrect night-time flap position, do you think?

[ProDave]

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

I think this is what's happening with my folks' heaters. A_L would a poor ammount of stored heat-release during the day period (heater barely warm) be the likely result of this incorrect night-time flap position, do you think?

Or one or more of the heating elements has failed.  There are up to 4 heating elements in a storage heater depending on it's size and if one has failed, that part of the core won't be heated.  A competent electrician should be able to test them. 

[zoothorn]

24 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Or one or more of the heating elements has failed.  There are up to 4 heating elements in a storage heater depending on it's size and if one has failed, that part of the core won't be heated.  A competent electrician should be able to test them. 

 

But the whole thing's barely warm during the day, & proper belting out heat at midnight tho..

[PeterW]

Sounds like the flap isn’t closed when it’s heating and it starts at 11pm... so midnight is about right for heat out 

[ProDave]

If getting an electrician, tell hime to check the tiny heater (a wire wound resistor) that sits right under the bimetalic strip that operates the flap.

 

Oh and make sure your folk are turning the boost knob all the way down before they go to bed. That should shut the flat even id the little heater is dead.

[phatboy]

21 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If getting an electrician, tell hime to check the tiny heater (a wire wound resistor) that sits right under the bimetalic strip that operates the flap.

 

Do they all have this?  On the old and very common Dimplex XL series I thought it was completely reliant on the user to close the flap?  Also on the XLS series which was sold right up until LOT20 came in?

 

Happy to be corrected.....

[zoothorn]

Ah so the flap is operated both manually, & via the resistor-metalstrip ? is the thermostat then part of this circuit?

 

Can you give me an overview of a storage heater system as a whole, say 5 rads. If there's a timed period at night when in the ''charging state" using the lower cost electricity (is this redcuced 'leccy rate even viable still in 2019?), & I cannot see on the rad a timer mech.. how are they controlled?

[zoothorn]

I get the feeling in the UK we just have stupidly complicated heating systems- would I be right? I can't see the swedish having TRV fallible rad valves to fail & worry about, storage heaters using nightly off peak periods trying best to release &/ or be operated correctly, or oil filled rads with such complicated (& silly-small) digital controls many folks give up trying to figure out. Bloody ridiculous. I bet the scandies have a nice even, medium-hot heat source from 1 or 2 rads per house, simple as, maybe offshoot from a stove. But I bet never any rad in a daft binary state of flat-out hot, or not on at all + some overcomplicated system to regulate a 'mix'.

 

I seem to remember central heating that had rads that were a nice 'medium' hot, without TRV horroshows attatched. But I was told this wouldn't have been so, they always would have had some kind of TRV valve on. Which means flat-out hot, or cold. On or off state (so not ever a nice medium-warm rad then). I could swear by it tho.

 

 

[dpmiller]

you do realise the TRVs aren't binary but modulate flow and thus rad temp?

[zoothorn]

Not mine that I had: the rad was either flat out hot or cold, not once was it ever a medium heat. The TRV is just a thermostatic switch tho- & a switch is inherrantly binary. My oil filled rad here's the same, flat out hot or cold/ on or off.. just regulated to go on or off via the thermostat: in this way it can never be a nice medium heat, its not designed to rather the room is designed to be the nice even-medium heat. Surely that's the same basic principle of a TRV rad, just the heated-up liquid different.

[dpmiller]

No, a TRV is liquid or wax filled just like the thermostat in a car.

[A_L]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Ah so the flap is operated both manually, & via the resistor-metalstrip ? is the thermostat then part of this circuit?

 

Can you give me an overview of a storage heater system as a whole, say 5 rads. If there's a timed period at night when in the ''charging state" using the lower cost electricity (is this redcuced 'leccy rate even viable still in 2019?), & I cannot see on the rad a timer mech.. how are they controlled?

 

The thermostat which operates the flap is the metal strip, it is purely mechanical, it does not switch electricity. There is no room thermostat on a storage radiator. If you turn the output control while looking through the upper air grill you should see the damper open/close (or hear it) Leave the damper in an open position and wait for the next off peak period to see if it closes automatically.(have the input control set to a small value).

 

The storage rads are on a circuit which is only energised during an off-peak period, there will either be a electricity meter capable of controlling this or a on very old systems a separate time clock near the meter. The off-peak rate is more expensive w.r.t. to on-peak now than it used to be and I expect it to decline in advantage over time.