nod Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 In order to satisfy BC What do I need regarding the boiler and gas Is a normal gas cert enough Like I would have for our rentals Or is something else needed I’ve already been caught out with the WYAPS cert It caused weeks of delays with the water connection It turned out that the box listing internal inspection hadn’t been ticked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Just a normal gas safe certificate. My local Gas engineer has agreed to test mine and issue a certificate when we are ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Is this a brand new gas burning appliance that has been self fitted? If it’s brand new then it needs to have the Benchmark certificate filled out by A) the installation agent and B) the commissioning agent. Anything less will be an illegal installation and you will also never be able to claim on the warranty. WB do a good warranty but the Benchmark is the first thing they’ll ask for when you call them out. If your looking to stay off the radar then you may get a GSR fitter to give you a ‘home owners safery certificate’ but it’s very hard to find someone to do that these days as the tax and vat man is now actively seeking to prosecute in line with the GSR for cash installs which have just been signed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexphd1 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Nice to hear they have toughened up on the benchmark paperwork, it was just laziness from the installers when it was left empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Can anybody explain more about this benchmark thing please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 3 hours ago, ProDave said: Just a normal gas safe certificate. My local Gas engineer has agreed to test mine and issue a certificate when we are ready. Actually illegal as your not the only person residing there so cannot demonstrate that you did the gas work "for yourself only". If they caught him he'd get kicked off the competent persons scheme ( GSR ). Theres been a massive shake up around this, so beware. Its Gas Safe or UNSAFE. No middle ground there regardless of whats said at the pub bar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Alexphd1 said: Nice to hear they have toughened up on the benchmark paperwork, it was just laziness from the installers when it was left empty. Guy I picked up gas fitting with actively destroyed the booklet after opening the box of the appliance so there was no 'paper-trail'. I look back and shudder. One of his favourite Ace cards was to open the regulator and allow more pressure through to allow sufficient burner pressure off existing 15mm supplies ( to save a new 22mm run ). Some must have been left running over 30 mb. No wonder he's got a nicer house than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said: Actually illegal as your not the only person residing there so cannot demonstrate that you did the gas work "for yourself only". That cannot be the whole picture. What would the situation be if both my wife and I did the install would that make it legal for us both to live there? If so then all one would need to do is invite all the people on face book to 'help" with the install and anybody can live there.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: Actually illegal as your not the only person residing there so cannot demonstrate that you did the gas work "for yourself only". If they caught him he'd get kicked off the competent persons scheme ( GSR ). Theres been a massive shake up around this, so beware. Its Gas Safe or UNSAFE. No middle ground there regardless of whats said at the pub bar. What will actually probably happen is when I complete the sun room the gas bottles will move to their final location, and he will be presented with a length of pipe connected to the hob and it will be his job to connect the regulator, test and certify. If there is anything wrong with that then the law is an ass. This is one pipe from a changeover regulator to a hob. just 2 connections, one each end. It is is £20 hob from Howdens sale, and I don't give a flying fig about any warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: Guy I picked up gas fitting with actively destroyed the booklet after opening the box of the appliance so there was no 'paper-trail'. I look back and shudder. One of his favourite Ace cards was to open the regulator and allow more pressure through to allow sufficient burner pressure off existing 15mm supplies ( to save a new 22mm run ). Some must have been left running over 30 mb. No wonder he's got a nicer house than me. That is totally different, a guy who should know better bodging it and possibly making it unsafe in the process. The book should be thrown at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 46 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: That cannot be the whole picture. What would the situation be if both my wife and I did the install would that make it legal for us both to live there? If so then all one would need to do is invite all the people on face book to 'help" with the install and anybody can live there.? Interesting case, but probably not one that would stand up to scrutiny, in that there can only be one competent person responsible for the installation in law, I believe. DIY installations of gas appliances has been heavily clamped down on over the past few years, as @Nickfromwales mentions. The driving force behind this is that we continue to get major gas-related incidents, like houses blowing up and killing people, often due to DIY work. Years ago I fitted a wall hung gas boiler, did all the water connections etc, did the wiring as far as having an FCU, and the programmer (with room stat connection) next to the boiler for it to connect to, and drilled a hole in the wall for the gas pipe. I then got a CORGI chap in to install the gas pipework, wire the boiler up and test everything and sign it off. I'm pretty sure you may not even be allowed to go this far now, and that a GSR person has to do the whole job of installing the boiler, but I may be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 Thanks for that advise The guy who installed the gas and boiler is a childhood friend who ran his own business up until eight years ago He now works at a local hospital maintaining there heating and general plumbing He has a friend who will sign it off who used to work for him. The reason for my question was I’ve a gas cert on a rental due I was going to kill two birds with one stone The lad that does our gas certs is employed by a boiler repair company and replaced a boiler for me recently Then did the warranty through the company that he works for But it was purchased on their account so this might not be possible with our build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 1 hour ago, ProDave said: What will actually probably happen is when I complete the sun room the gas bottles will move to their final location, and he will be presented with a length of pipe connected to the hob and it will be his job to connect the regulator, test and certify. If there is anything wrong with that then the law is an ass. This is one pipe from a changeover regulator to a hob. just 2 connections, one each end. It is is £20 hob from Howdens sale, and I don't give a flying fig about any warranty. The only ass would be the guy taking any assumptions about the integrity of the pipe and the way you fitted it. It would be like you being asked to connect a fuse-board in a finished house and to put your name to the cables all being of the correct integrity and in the safe zones / not buried in insulation etc. Eg you'd be an ass to agree to that, with your own business, family and the fact you'd be prosecuted for doing so. Having registration with such competent installers schemes is the thing that ordains you to do the correct thing, without exception. If I, a non GSR fitter went and connected a boiler for someone, and there was a death, the courts would give me a lesser sentence as i would be deemed to 'not know any better'. If the same happened with a GS Registered agent they'd lock him up for 10 years for manslaughter because hes been trained, is aware of, and should be operating within the guidelines of the correct legislation as set out at the time. Its not open to interpretation, its the law . 2 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said: That cannot be the whole picture. What would the situation be if both my wife and I did the install would that make it legal for us both to live there? If so then all one would need to do is invite all the people on face book to 'help" with the install and anybody can live there.? The person who turns the gas on is the person who turns a heap of metal into a lethal installation. Again, legislation commands that you do neither. If you killed yourself or your family in residence then you'd just get a slap on the wrist, but they'd all still be dead. 1 hour ago, JSHarris said: I'm pretty sure you may not even be allowed to go this far now, and that a GSR person has to do the whole job of installing the boiler, but I may be wrong. Yes, correct. You need to be at least ACS ( your qualification prior to becoming GSR ) and be working under the supervision of a GSR agent to carry out the installation of the boiler. That's why the Benchmark requires a section filled out by the installer, and one for the commissioning agent, even though they can be the same person. How people can be so ignorant of this is beyond belief sometimes if I'm honest. This only needs to go wrong once. Save money somewhere else. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 1 hour ago, nod said: Thanks for that advise The guy who installed the gas and boiler is a childhood friend who ran his own business up until eight years ago He now works at a local hospital maintaining there heating and general plumbing He has a friend who will sign it off who used to work for him. The reason for my question was I’ve a gas cert on a rental due I was going to kill two birds with one stone The lad that does our gas certs is employed by a boiler repair company and replaced a boiler for me recently Then did the warranty through the company that he works for But it was purchased on their account so this might not be possible with our build. Its just down to whether your friend has maintained his GS status. If not then the guy signing it off is on thin ice tbh. Seriously, the 'good old days' are gone, because of the number of incidents casing damage or death. The cert on the rental is easy, GSR fitter needs to do it, and you also should check that they've got fires and cookers on their card as some dont but still work on fires and cookers regardless. They'll go straight to jail if they haven't. I know of a local town where this was cracked down on, and at least 1 guy went to jail for an incorrectly fitted flue on a job he'd signed off for someone else. It hadn't been fitted properly and was found to be letting carbon monoxide escape into the bedroom. That guy was a long established and reputable fitter. That is why he got jail, as he should have known not to do it. The rest that got pulled were done by the taxman for fitting for cash, with the commissioning guys being told to volunteer the information about who fitted them or lose their GSR, or they would have to pay the taxable value of the work they didn't undertake. The warranty resides with the end owner of the boiler, and where or how it was bought should have no impact. 2 hours ago, ProDave said: That is totally different, a guy who should know better bodging it and possibly making it unsafe in the process. The book should be thrown at him. It wasnt, and he got away with doing that for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 5 hours ago, Russell griffiths said: Can anybody explain more about this benchmark thing please. With each appliance a Benchmark certificate is provided. Its usually the last two pages of the Installation Instructions. Link 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 I have no intention of installing any gas stuff myself, I appreciate the risks, so will have it done by a GS person. Although I have to say the new Sunamp box of tricks might make the whole plan for a Combi to supply DHW redundant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 I had my bottled gas connected to the cooker by a Gas safe chap, i installed the pipe but he saw that at both ends it was encased in sand, pressure tested it, connected the changeover valve, changed the jets to LPG ones, tested and ran the cooker and will forward a certificate when I need it for BC sign off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, joe90 said: I had my bottled gas connected to the cooker by a Gas safe chap, i installed the pipe but he saw that at both ends it was encased in sand, pressure tested it, connected the changeover valve, changed the jets to LPG ones, tested and ran the cooker and will forward a certificate when I need it for BC sign off. Get that certificate NOW. He might have vanished by the time you need it later. What pipe did you use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Yellow plastic gas pipe but it’s not allowed inside the house or above ground, has to be converted to copper, gas man told me this is in case of fire plastic pipe will melt. Gas man is my electricians brother (and I know where he lives) but, you are right will contact him this week , thanks Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 5 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said: I have no intention of installing any gas stuff myself, I appreciate the risks, so will have it done by a GS person. Although I have to say the new Sunamp box of tricks might make the whole plan for a Combi to supply DHW redundant. Yup. @TerryE‘s Willis / SA solution is indeed deliciously simple and crazy cost effective. Without PV he went to the Willis but beefing up the SA heat store with a PV driven setup would be equally simple and effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Well I do have a couple of rings fed from an external propane cylinder as backup. (Complete with the GS cert for the installation). We did use them a coupe of times before Jan decided that she far prefers the immediacy and cleanliness of the 4 ring induction hob. Ditto me. We have turned it off at the bottle as we never use them. IMO, there's little point in installing a gas supply in a passive house because you can't really avoid installing an electric supply and the marginal installation costs / daily connection charge / annual maintenance are far higher than any delta in using electricity, even without PV but especially with. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Ha, I wanted induction but my other half wanted Gas so we compromised (she had her way ?). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanetE Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 4 hours ago, joe90 said: Ha, I wanted induction but my other half wanted Gas so we compromised (she had her way ?). That's a shame, I've always previously had gas cookers and was reluctant to go electric in the new house. So compromised with an induction hob and was amazed at how good they are, as instantaneous as gas but far, far easier to keep clean and look so much nicer too. I would never consider going back to gas now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 5 hours ago, joe90 said: Ha, I wanted induction but my other half wanted Gas so we compromised (she had her way ?). I briefly entered the conversation about what cooker. "You choose the cooker, you do the cooking" I keep quiet now. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I discovered induction jobs when I did a cooking course and found them very controllable and easy to keep clean (I do half the cooking ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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