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Basic kit superstructure erection

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First time poster on here, and first time self builder in Scotland.

We're self project managing too and up to now everything has gone well....founds, underbuilding, drains, slab all complete without any major headaches. Steel is in place and scaffold up.

However, our joiner friends who've been lined up to erect the kit for us now seem to be trying to take advantage and after being very evasive over the price now indicate something much more expensive than first intimated. Cash job. They make £250-300 a day  normally on site, cash was to be £200-250

We are building a 300m2 bungalow with roof trusses to enable future conversion. Initially, they wanted to put 2 boys on the job to erect, for 3-4 weeks, wind/watertight in 5 weeks. So estimated at 11k total cash.

Now they say 4 guys 6 weeks.

 

Can anyone give an indication of what timescale/manpower is realistic?

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Hi and welcome to the forum

 

If that is to erect a kit already made in panels then that is an awfully long time.  4 men had our frame up in a week, that was 2 storeys about half the floor area of yours.  Or is that making the frame on site as they go?

 

Which part of Scotland are you?

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Our 130m²  1 1/2 storey timber frame kit took 4 1/2 days to erect to the wind and watertight stage (door and window apertures just blocked off).  IIRC there were three chaps working on it flat out, pulling over 12 hour days, plus a crane and driver on site for the first two days.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Hi and welcome to the forum

 

If that is to erect a kit already made in panels then that is an awfully long time.  4 men had our frame up in a week, that was 2 storeys about half the floor area of yours.  Or is that making the frame on site as they go?

 

Which part of Scotland are you?

Thanks for the quick reply Dave.

The panels are built already. I guess a fair estimate based on your timescale would be 2 double up the time, so 4 guys 2 weeks to get the kit up, perhaps less given it's only 1 level.

 

Would internal roughings be approx the same timescale as erect, or more...say double? We're also putting in velux for the future attic conversion at this stage and we're being told 4 hours per window installation. Realistic?

 

I'm in West Lothian, 5 minutes from Livingston.

Edited by Google

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Just as a guide, this photo was taken at about 08:30 on day one of our build, as the timber frame arrived on the truck:

 

8-30-am-day-1-2.jpg

 

This photo was taken on the same day at around 16:30:

 

3pm-day-1-2.jpg

 

After three blokes, plus a crane a driver, working flat out for around 8 hours the whole ground floor frame was up, almost all the internal stud walls were up and they were getting ready to start putting in the first floor joists. 

 

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Hello, you’re not far from us, we’re in Carluke, our kit went up in 11days , 1.5 storey and the joiners had to build the middle section of roof on site, 3joiners finished to wind and water tight including all windows, doors and 3 sets of bi fold doors, velux were left for the roofers and they put the first one in yesterday in an hour, I note you say the joiners are friends -bad move! This is our third self build and we employed a friend on the last one who totally took the Michael and suffice to say we are no longer friends, since we are within 15 miles of each other please feel free to visit, if you send me a message I’ll be happy to give you address 

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Welcome! 

 

It will depend on the kit TBH as to how much needs to be done on site but mine was a timber frame closed panel system for a 2 storey 350 m2 house and this was the timeline:

 

3 joiners (and 1 crane driver for 3 of the days). After the trusses were complete we went down to 2 joiners. It was a fixed price job. 

 

Day 1 - ground floor panels complete. 

Day 2 and 3 - internal ground floor frame completed, and first floor joists 

Day 4 - first floor panels erected 

 

9C78B2C1-F1C2-45F7-8CCD-5FEB42276A35.jpeg.fcfce39fae140e2acc3a65dbae112ba4.jpeg

 

7DCF39A8-5DF5-4AF4-8692-C06CD6BBFB9C.thumb.jpeg.b039b7f47eccfd19c7dea63f35d7dc1c.jpeg

 

Days 5 - 8 - roof trusses (it is a fairly large and complicated roof so it took some time). 

 

464146A1-7F72-48F8-8D42-9666BE3C33DB.thumb.jpeg.b8fbfcc6e2436ab5aef55463375ccde6.jpeg

 

B0A0E271-FC12-4DF9-A643-322816070F55.thumb.jpeg.4abd9ea4138ab6a7c8a493c4713e5be0.jpeg

 

Days 9 and 10 sarking (we went down to 2 joiners then)

 

10F8BE9D-91CD-400B-9EF8-635E365D5BD7.jpeg.1ade8f493e29d31af68b44d9a00a5b04.jpeg

 

Day 11 internal first floor panels completed. 

 

Windows were fitted a bit later due to a delay at the manufacturing end but as you can see it was all up fairly quickly. I would estimate circa 34 working days plus 3 days for the crane driver. The timber frame company paid for the third day crane hire as the trusses didn’t turn up on time so that caused a small delay but they got on with the internal walls instead. 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

Hello, you’re not far from us, we’re in Carluke, our kit went up in 11days , 1.5 storey and the joiners had to build the middle section of roof on site, 3joiners finished to wind and water tight including all windows, doors and 3 sets of bi fold doors, velux were left for the roofers and they put the first one in yesterday in an hour, I note you say the joiners are friends -bad move! This is our third self build and we employed a friend on the last one who totally took the Michael and suffice to say we are no longer friends, since we are within 15 miles of each other please feel free to visit, if you send me a message I’ll be happy to give you address 

I also think it would have been better to get a written cost at the outset to save this from happening believe me we’ve learned a lot of lessons in previous builds

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7 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

Hello, you’re not far from us, we’re in Carluke, our kit went up in 11days , 1.5 storey and the joiners had to build the middle section of roof on site, 3joiners finished to wind and water tight including all windows, doors and 3 sets of bi fold doors, velux were left for the roofers and they put the first one in yesterday in an hour, I note you say the joiners are friends -bad move! This is our third self build and we employed a friend on the last one who totally took the Michael and suffice to say we are no longer friends, since we are within 15 miles of each other please feel free to visit, if you send me a message I’ll be happy to give you address 

Thanks for that Christine.

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Which timber frame company are you using ..? They will have recommended installers who should be able to give you a price and duration 

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@PeterWyes we went with the joiners through the to company, we did ask our builders if they wanted to do it but their reckoning was that these guys were working with their tfs every day and would know them inside out and at the end of the day the price was more or less the same, after seeing how the roof had to be constructed we were glad we went with them 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Which timber frame company are you using ..? They will have recommended installers who should be able to give you a price and duration 

We're using Claymore Timber from Cupar in Fife, who've been brilliant.

 

 

Edited by Google

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From what everyone is saying 2-3 weeks sounds a reasonable timescale for the erection, perhaps less as it's on one level.

 

Just need to get a decent estimate on the roughings now.

 

Thanks everyone for all your help

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1 hour ago, Google said:

[...]

However, our joiner friends who've been lined up to erect the kit for us

[...]

 

There's the issue, right there. 

Can I suggest that they may well not be friends, or at least ought not to be regarded as such for the period of the build.

Some tricky, delicate negotiation required now, I think

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Posted (edited)

My advice. Follow @Christine Walker‘s lead. You are both using the same timber frame company it seems and Christine’s seems to have gone up really well. You need her builders to put yours up. You can always make an excuse to the ‘friends’ that you’ve gone with the TF company’s advice to use their team. 

Edited by newhome

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Posted (edited)

In reply to your Velux question - I just fitted a similar roof window in 8 hours and that included recutting the slates to fit around the window (by far the longest job).  It was the first time I had fitted one so I was taking it slowly to learn what I was doing.

 

If you have planned for the Velux from the start and fitting it doesn't involve cutting and re-bracing rafters, then it should just be a matter of cutting the membrane and sarking board and dropping it into place, then fixing to the framing you have accurately (you hope!) provided.  This is a job for an hour at most I would think - you could easily do it yourself if you are physically able to lift the window into position and there is scaffolding there to work off.  It is helpful but not essential to have someone else on the inside of the house during the cutting and fitting.

 

I think from the time I started to when I had the window itself fitted was only around two hours for me and I had to remove the slates and old window first.  As I said, refitting and reshaping the slates afterwards was by far the most time-consuming job, but presumably the roofing will be done later on your job.

 

Edited to add: there will be a skirt of some sort at the bottom of the window which goes over the roofing material - this will be flexible so you can leave it folded back over the glass until the roofing slates or whatever have been fitted.  The slates go over the top and sides of the window obviously to keep it watertight.

 

 

Edited by Square Feet

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Velux is a roofers job, and takes 2 hours tops per window in an open frame.

 

Joiners frame out for them to the right size and then felt and batten straight over. If its sarked then cut the opening but still go straight over with the membrane.

 

 

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Thanks everyone for the advice so far.

Wish I'd found this forum months ago.

 

Would anyone be able to give an indicative time/manpower requirement for the 300m2 roughings stage? 4 bed, 4 bath bungalow, lounge(vaulted ceiling), kitchen, utility, snug, garage. Ballpark timescale would be brilliant.

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Would be much easier to estimate if you could post some plans TBH. 

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4 hours ago, Google said:

First time poster on here, and first time self builder in Scotland.

We're self project managing too and up to now everything has gone well....founds, underbuilding, drains, slab all complete without any major headaches. Steel is in place and scaffold up.

However, our joiner friends who've been lined up to erect the kit for us now seem to be trying to take advantage and after being very evasive over the price now indicate something much more expensive than first intimated. Cash job. They make £250-300 a day  normally on site, cash was to be £200-250

We are building a 300m2 bungalow with roof trusses to enable future conversion. Initially, they wanted to put 2 boys on the job to erect, for 3-4 weeks, wind/watertight in 5 weeks. So estimated at 11k total cash.

Now they say 4 guys 6 weeks.

 

Can anyone give an indication of what timescale/manpower is realistic?

Sounds far too long to me! 

 

Even the original 3-4 weeks seems too long!

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Google said:

Thanks everyone for the advice so far.

Wish I'd found this forum months ago.

 

Would anyone be able to give an indicative time/manpower requirement for the 300m2 roughings stage? 4 bed, 4 bath bungalow, lounge(vaulted ceiling), kitchen, utility, snug, garage. Ballpark timescale would be brilliant.

 

Roughings as in internal studwork..? 

 

Is the frame just the external frame..? Got any plans ..?

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Posted (edited)

Roughing will include installing stud partitions which by the way have to be insulated then plaster boarded insulation to all outside walls, our roughing also included laying upstairs floor . We are at the roughing stage just now, into the third week and they’re almost finished upstairs, fitting the kingspan has been time consuming as it has to be fitted tightly then sealed, down stairs should go on quicker as it’s the rock wool which has already been done so just really plaster board to fit 

Edited by Christine Walker

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40 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

Roughings as in internal studwork..? 

 

Is the frame just the external frame..? Got any plans ..?

The frame includes the internal partitions, so I'm talking about the wool insulation, ceilings and plasterboard throughout. 

02 E - ground floor plan.pdf

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Can you not get a price for erecting the complete frame from the timber frame supplier. They will know what they are doing and the guys doing it will be a well oiled machine. You already have a price for the frame so take these away and that's your price for all the rest.

Going by your floor plan the only tricky but will be the right hand side where it sits at 45 degrees. Everything else if your going for roof truss will be just a matter of swinging the truss in and nailing them home. 

If the joiners you have lined up are taking 4hrs to do a velux then they ain't the guys who should be any where near your site. The concept that you will get better work or cheaper work from mates is pie in the sky most of the time. It's usually them that you end up doing the running round after.

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The benefit of getting the TF company’s own team to do it will mean that it should be ‘supply and fit’ that means that you should not have to pay the TF kit vat upfront and reclaim it as you would with supply only. I assume you are on board with the vat scheme? Lots to understand to ensure you don’t fall foul of any of the rules and miss out. 

 

 

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