Help with kitchen renovation/ 1st house.

[zoothorn]

[Mods- could the thread start from pg 20, so I can look back easier- & then its a normal ~15 pg thread.. so I don't look such a jessie-?]

 

thanks zootH

[Ed Davies]

12 hours ago, newhome said:

This might be a crap idea but can you insulate under the kitchen cupboards? As in put Rockwool or similar underneath them?

Probably is a crap idea: it'll make the concrete under the Rockwool colder likely resulting in condensation building up there. This sort of thing needs a very good vapour control layer to be safe.

[newhome]

Just now, Ed Davies said:

Probably is a crap idea: it'll make the concrete under the Rockwool colder likely resulting in condensation building up there. This sort of thing needs a very good vapour control layer to be safe.

 

Ok thanks. What about something like this that is supposedly for concrete floors? 

 

https://www.ecohome-insulation.com/products/ecotec-floorfoam-insulation-kit

 

 

[Ed Davies]

One can be sceptical about how much insulation 4mm of anything, however clever, will give but, yes, something vapour closed like that would be what's needed.

[newhome]

Shouldn’t you put something under flooring anyway? If not this stuff what would be best for vinyl for instance as I think that’s what @zoothorn was thinking of using? 

 

[zoothorn]

Interesting link thanks/ great idea. I'll pass it onto my carpet/ lino chap see if he can lay lino on: I don't think ideal if it makes a 'spongey' kitchen floor tho, which it might if the two together ~ 6mm.

[zoothorn]

I think that's the right idea newhome.. £130 even if it makes a slight difference, would be probably worth it. I'll see what the reviews say first though- it has a heck of alot of competition to contend with re. cold coming up/ Ive never know any floor like this: it feels like a solid concrete slab onto (damp area/ very cold below) ground with a dpc it seems thankfully(!), but with absolutely 0 insulation.

[newhome]

Where's @SteamyTea when you want him? He's always good at insulation subjects et al. 

[Onoff]

The existing socket stays where it is and in use. A short, new length of 2.5mm twin and earth connects it to the new outside socket which can be one or two gang. Something like this:

 

 

I'm making assumptions that your ring main is RCD protected and that it is in fact a ring main. Your electrician would be able to advise better.

 

 

[zoothorn]

Onoff that's flippin marvellous.. thanks (your drawings are great btw).

 

Forgive me for asking a daft Q.. but how could I drill through the back of the socket, using leccy if the leccy's off for this work? battery drill?

 

I think maybe I need an electrician for this job.. but mine's n/a for end of year.

 

How would I establish if its a ring main.. only a spark can know the answer-?

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

Onoff that's flippin marvellous.. thanks (your drawings are great btw).

 

Forgive me for asking a daft Q.. but how could I drill through the back of the socket, using leccy if the leccy's off for this work? battery drill?

 

I think maybe I need an electrician for this job.. but mine's n/a for end of year.

 

How would I establish if its a ring main.. only a spark can know the answer-?

 

Ideally a gutsy cordless. Depends what's the walls are made of. If it's lightweight, aerated concrete blocks like "Celcon" then your cordless MAY do it., but if not...

 

Isolate the circuit that that socket's on. MAKE SURE IT'S DEAD!. Plug extension lead into another socket on a different circuit....does the cooker switch (hopefully on a separate circuit) have a socket?

 

Tape / clip the existing wires out of the way

 

Prise/knock out one of the 20mm knockouts in the back of the existing back box. Drill through at a shallow angle.

 

As to whether it's a ring, the proper way is by inspection and testing:

 

Very roughly; isolate and test for dead. Prove your tester thereafter on a known source of supply; proving unit etc. Using a low reading ohmmeter, check for continuity of the ring final conductors i.e. P1/P2, N1,N2 then CPC1/CPC2. Cross connect the ends of the ring at the cu and test at each socket on the ring. Reading should be nominally the same at each socket on the ring. High readings should show up loose connections or spurs. Open circuits may indicate reverse polarity etc. Too much to teach you tbh. Go to college? Buy a book? Brian Scadden's stuff (imo) is a good, simple and informative read, the IET guide to the Building Regs book is good, Guidance Note 3 and so on. 

 

But.....at a push this:

 

A ring main socket has generally two bits of 2.5mm² T&E cable going to it, If you disconnected those two wires from the face plate they would both still be "live" as each "leg" goes back to likely a 32A breaker at the consumer unit. In rough terms then at each ring main socket the load is shared between each leg.

 

So you isolate your power and disconnect the socket. Make safe the L,N &  E of one leg (connector blocks, tape etc) and connect the remaining leg back to the socket. Power back on, does the socket work via that 32A breaker? If so that says it's likely going back to the cu. Disconnect and make safe the leg you know is "live". Do the same with the other leg. If both are showing as "live" it's likely it's a ring. If one leg is dead then it could be a spur or there's a break further down the line.

 

None of this is certain and as you appear not to have even the most basic knowledge of domestic electrics there's great scope to kill yourself. Sorry, but that's the way it is, I'm not being rude.

[newhome]

6 minutes ago, Onoff said:

you appear not to have even the most basic knowledge of domestic electrics there's great scope to kill yourself.

 

I have enough of a basic knowledge that tells me to leave it to someone with knowledge, especially with 3 phase. A death wish I do not have! 

 

That drawing above was ace by the way! I know you love your drawings but that one was one of the best so far! 

[zoothorn]

Ok if you say I have not even the basic knowledge of domestic electrics & make it clear its a firm step up just to test if I have a ring main or not.. then I've no choice but get a spark in. This may take a long time here.. so I have to proceed leaving this to last.

 

I think on the insulated flooring stuff, with the logistics involved in shifting everything out ( I can't do it 1/2 room > 1/2 room : too much stuff & the it can't go back on one side w'out lino or it'll rip), I can't do it. I've a suspicion it might only make a mite of difference too, plus be a spongey feel/ too much 'give' for a kitchen.

 

Thanks zoot.

[Onoff]

Can't find the 8th edition cheaper but this is good imo:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/17th-Edition-IET-Wiring-Regulations-Inspection-Testing-and-Certification/151787557359?

 

As is this:

 

https://www.wiringregulations.net/pub/Electricians-Guide-to-the-Building-Regulations-5th-Edition-9781785614682.aspx?

[newhome]

@Onoff's covering himself and giving you fair warning as to the dangers involved in electrics. Would be wrong of him to say 'give this a go' and then you go and electrocute yourself. I wouldn't worry about the socket for now TBH as it's on the other wall anyway isn't it? And get something sorted for that later on. The important thing is to get the sink etc installed. 

 

 

[zoothorn]

22 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

None of this is certain and as you appear not to have even the most basic knowledge of domestic electrics there's great scope to kill yourself. Sorry, but that's the way it is, I'm not being rude.

 

Ok best I leave the electrics for another thread I think, it only gets you annoyed which isn't ideal! its last job now/ to separate. What I'll do is print off your info & give to my spark that'll be best idea.

 

If I can just ask you on the plumbing, & the other stuff, I'll leave the electrics to only the finger plate addition, & the extension boxes.

 

I'm on the downhill now/ done the hardwork (I fKN hope!) so should be generally rewarding from now on putting it all back together!

 

Big thanks- zoot [look mods can we just scrap pgs 1-20 already? :-]

[Jeremy Harris]

21 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Can't find the 8th edition cheaper but this is good imo:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/17th-Edition-IET-Wiring-Regulations-Inspection-Testing-and-Certification/151787557359?

 

As is this:

 

https://www.wiringregulations.net/pub/Electricians-Guide-to-the-Building-Regulations-5th-Edition-9781785614682.aspx?

 

 

I have a scanned PDF copy of the 17th Ed if anyone wants it.  It's too big to attach here, I think.  Happy to send it as an email attachment, but bear in mind that it's intended to be read by people who already have an understanding of electrical installations.  The On Site Guide (OSGs) are easier to read, but restricted to those who hold accreditation. 

 

As an aside, I'm seriously looking at getting a Part P ticket, primarily to offer a test and inspection service and supervise straightforward DIY electrical work.  Given that I've already got the test gear and knowledge, the only expense would be the costs I'd incur from one of the accreditation bodies, plus getting my multitester recalibrated (it's about a year out of cal at the moment).  I'm currently looking around for the most cost-effective route to getting a ticket, and have already been told that I only need to do the one day refresher training on the 18th Ed - they will accept my 15th Ed C&G and teaching quals, something that surprised me.

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

 

Ok best I leave the electrics for another thread I think, it only gets you annoyed which isn't ideal! its last job now/ to separate. What I'll do is print off your info & give to my spark that'll be best idea.

 

If I can just ask you on the plumbing, & the other stuff, I'll leave the electrics to only the finger plate addition, & the extension boxes.

 

I'm on the downhill now/ done the hardwork (I fKN hope!) so should be generally rewarding from now on putting it all back together!

 

Big thanks- zoot [look mods can we just scrap pgs 1-20 already? :-]

 

Not getting angry at all. Been there, done that!

 

It's very difficult advising somebody. For a start it's trying to condense someones's learned knowledge, gleaned over years, into just the bits the DIY'er wants to know. They then don't have the benefit of an "old hand" looking over their shoulder as in the electrician/electrician's mate to tell them "Well done!" or "That's crap, do it again!". Then there's the whole dexterity thing that can only be learnt. It's OK saying "stick all three wires into the L terminal" but the trick is to know how much to strip, how not to nick the copper, when and how to fold a solid core back on itself so as to "double up" etc. 

 

Luckily I err on the side of thinking it's better to maybe advise someone the "right" way to do it in the hope the end result if they do have a bash will be at least "safer" than if they had gone in blind.

 

You then get into having the proper, often expensive tools and test kit and so on as well as knowledge of Building Regs & 7671. 

[newhome]

That sounds great @JSHarris. They must have a formal conversion course for someone who has done the full C&G qualification for a previous edition I would have thought anyway. 

[Ferdinand]

Quote

As an aside, I'm seriously looking at getting a Part P ticket, primarily to offer a test and inspection service and supervise straightforward DIY electrical work.  Given that I've already got the test gear and knowledge, the only expense would be the costs I'd incur from one of the accreditation bodies, plus getting my multitester recalibrated (it's about a year out of cal at the moment).  I'm currently looking around for the most cost-effective route to getting a ticket, and have already been told that I only need to do the one day refresher training on the 18th Ed - they will accept my 15th Ed C&G and teaching quals, something that surprised me.

 

@JSHarris, I thought that had a stinking Annual Fee attached ... of the order of £500 ... to be a Registered Competent Person,

 

My BiL did the qualifications at night school with a view to doing electrics, then found just how much he would need to be doing to be worthwhile, and that it would be difficult to justify in the interim while building up a possible business.

 

Eg

Edited September 1, 2018 by Ferdinand

[newhome]

3 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Then there's the whole dexterity thing that can only be learnt.

 

Nail on the head right there! I can look at videos etc until I'm blue in the face but try to actually do it and I have 10 thumbs and no brain cells connecting them! 

[Onoff]

13 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

I have a scanned PDF copy of the 17th Ed if anyone wants it.  It's too big to attach here, I think.  Happy to send it as an email attachment, but bear in mind that it's intended to be read by people who already have an understanding of electrical installations.  The On Site Guide (OSGs) are easier to read, but restricted to those who hold accreditation. 

 

As an aside, I'm seriously looking at getting a Part P ticket, primarily to offer a test and inspection service and supervise straightforward DIY electrical work.  Given that I've already got the test gear and knowledge, the only expense would be the costs I'd incur from one of the accreditation bodies, plus getting my multitester recalibrated (it's about a year out of cal at the moment).  I'm currently looking around for the most cost-effective route to getting a ticket, and have already been told that I only need to do the one day refresher training on the 18th Ed - they will accept my 15th Ed C&G and teaching quals, something that surprised me.

 

Though they don't advertise it I think NAPIT still do their "Just 8" scheme whereby you can annually verify just 8 notifiable jobs. Designed for retirees and say college lecturers who just want to keep their hand in / be on a par with their students and do the odd job for family and friends. Worth a look. 

 

[zoothorn]

Right now hard bit done..

 

 

[newhome]

Good stuff! Now to get it all put back together! 

[zoothorn]

Cor blimey lucky me.. the bigger sink -just- sits in the cabinet between the side & the drawer rail.. by mm's. And from back to front.. by mm's.

 

A very tricky one to get the top c/o at exactly, mm perfect, the right place. Sheesh.