IVT Ecolane ASHP - any owners out there?

[PTUK]

Thanks  for the reply everyone, I have the IVT Ecolane 9KW I shall fit a magnetic filter in the return pipe.

 

I have a pair of spare inputs to the gledhill cylinder,. Could I use a three port valve to split the output from the ASHP to cylinder and UFH? I'm not sure if i can add antifreeze to the gledhill and even if i could it has a 350 litre capacity so would need lots of antifreeze. The ASHP is just outside the new extension wall and the UFH manifold is just inside the same wall so only 400mm of flexi pipe is outside will it be ok without antifreeze?

 

Gav_P

I was worried about the minimum water volume in my system, your DHW probably add volume to prevent short cycling.

Jack

This minimum water volume is what is worrying me 9KW ASHP and only about 45 litres of water in the UFH

JSHarris

I have a 4 port manifold with 3 loops used (the 4th loop is just a short pipe from flow to return or a big radiator in the garage next door to add load and capacity if required) total about 450m pipe so 45 litres in the pipes so I'm far short of the minimum capacity. When your buffer tank warms up what happens to that heat?

PeterW

Brick and block walls with cavity slab filled 100mm cavity, 100mm floor insulation with 70mm creed with heating pipes inside. I worked on 1KW per m2 of floor so i expect to need about 4.5KW. I add a pic of the manifold it is the blending type. You have lots of pipe run I only have 2 meter pipe between ASHP and UFH manifold so if the blending valve restricts flow then there will be very little water in the circuit.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, PTUK said:

The ASHP is just outside the new extension wall and the UFH manifold is just inside the same wall so only 400mm of flexi pipe is outside will it be ok without antifreeze?

 

No, as the risk is that the pipework and heat exchanger inside the ASHP will freeze when the ASHP is off and the temperature outside drops below freezing.

 

1 minute ago, PTUK said:

JSHarris

I have a 4 port manifold with 3 loops used (the 4th loop is just a short pipe from flow to return or a big radiator in the garage next door to add load and capacity if required) total about 450m pipe so 45 litres in the pipes so I'm far short of the minimum capacity. When your buffer tank warms up what happens to that heat?

 

You may well find that you're fine with 45 litres system volume, based on what @PeterW has said about the way the IVT just relies on there being sufficient flow rate, rather than volume.  Our buffer can run the UFH with the heat pump off for an hour or two, so limits the number of times it fires up.

 

[PeterW]

37 minutes ago, PTUK said:

Thanks  for the reply everyone, I have the IVT Ecolane 9KW I shall fit a magnetic filter in the return pipe.

 

I have a pair of spare inputs to the gledhill cylinder,. Could I use a three port valve to split the output from the ASHP to cylinder and UFH? I'm not sure if i can add antifreeze to the gledhill and even if i could it has a 350 litre capacity so would need lots of antifreeze. The ASHP is just outside the new extension wall and the UFH manifold is just inside the same wall so only 400mm of flexi pipe is outside will it be ok without antifreeze?

 

Gav_P

I was worried about the minimum water volume in my system, your DHW probably add volume to prevent short cycling.

Jack

This minimum water volume is what is worrying me 9KW ASHP and only about 45 litres of water in the UFH

JSHarris

I have a 4 port manifold with 3 loops used (the 4th loop is just a short pipe from flow to return or a big radiator in the garage next door to add load and capacity if required) total about 450m pipe so 45 litres in the pipes so I'm far short of the minimum capacity. When your buffer tank warms up what happens to that heat?

PeterW

Brick and block walls with cavity slab filled 100mm cavity, 100mm floor insulation with 70mm creed with heating pipes inside. I worked on 1KW per m2 of floor so i expect to need about 4.5KW. I add a pic of the manifold it is the blending type. You have lots of pipe run I only have 2 meter pipe between ASHP and UFH manifold so if the blending valve restricts flow then there will be very little water in the circuit.

 

 

Looks like a Ridex (?) kit off EBay..?? Is it fitted ..?

 

with a bit of re work, you can make that be auto blending and also re-use the pump for the heat pump. 

 

Is the extension one big zone ..??

[ProDave]

That looks to be the same manifolds I have that also came from ebay.  Be warned, those IBO pumps are noisy.  I changed the worst offending one (the on in our en-suite upstairs) for a Wilo and it is silent.  I will probably end up changing the other one as well

 

.

[PTUK]

38 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

No, as the risk is that the pipework and heat exchanger inside the ASHP will freeze when the ASHP is off and the temperature outside drops below freezing.

 

 

You may well find that you're fine with 45 litres system volume, based on what @PeterW has said about the way the IVT just relies on there being sufficient flow rate, rather than volume.  Our buffer can run the UFH with the heat pump off for an hour or two, so limits the number of times it fires up.

 

Ok i did think no antifreeze is a big no. I did like PeterW's suggestion and so far it's what I shall try first.

[PTUK]

8 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

Looks like a Ridex (?) kit off EBay..?? Is it fitted ..?

 

with a bit of re work, you can make that be auto blending and also re-use the pump for the heat pump. 

 

Is the extension one big zone ..??

It is the UHF kit from eBay. Manifold is on the wall and the first loop is on the floor, other two loops will go down this weekend.  The extension is one big room kitchen, diner, sitting area 11 x 4 meter just one thermostat because it is totally open. 3 UHF zones because the pipe is only 200m per roll and I didn't want joints in the floor. Could you give some more info on the rework please, I do have a few red grundfos heating pumps so I don't mind adding a pump between the ASHP and manifold but if it's not required or better without then that's ok. I was considering not using the actuators to prevent the loops from closing, just stop the ASHP and pumps when the thermostat stops calling for heat.

[PTUK]

20 minutes ago, ProDave said:

That looks to be the same manifolds I have that also came from ebay.  Be warned, those IBO pumps are noisy.  I changed the worst offending one (the on in our en-suite upstairs) for a Wilo and it is silent.  I will probably end up changing the other one as well

 

.

That's good info thanks. I do have a few red grundfos heating pumps so I shall use one of them instead if that orange one. Unless you think I should just get a new willow. 

[ProDave]

I used to be a Grundfos fan, but have to say I was taken by the Wilo at how refined and silent it was.  I only used it as a substitute as I had one spare, if I am buying another to replace the other IBO it will be another Wilo that I buy.

[PeterW]

So .... I would bin off the blender, connect the flow from the ASHP through a butterfly valve direct to the manifold. You will somehow need to add an 8 litre expansion vessel in here via a tee but nothing else as it’s just a closed system. You’ll need a fill point too but you could be clever and use the drain valve on one end of the manifold as these don’t have one way valves on them. 

 

From the return, run through a mag / particle filter and then use a length of copper pipe as the sensor section for the pipe stat which could be where your pump goes. Those canister filters make it easy to add inhibitor or antifreeze and you’ll need about 10 litres. Only add it after you’ve filled the whole of the loops with water though as you’ll just end up with lots of air otherwise. 

 

I’d consider using the Wunda self setting heads to regulate the flow - not expensive either. It will regulate the flow to 7c but you  will need the bypass as it could shut the lot down and the ASHP may go into overheat mode. 

 

You could link port 4 flow and return through a pipe and shut it down so that there is a bit of restriction with a valve or you can do this by taking the manifold apart and removing the drain valves from the ends. These should be standard 3/4 thread so put one on the bottom manifold as a drain off, take the other and remove its vent plug and put that in the top rail in place of the flow valve. 

 

You need to run the ASHP on setting 4 which means from memory that the positive from the 24v goes to A5, and the negative goes to A2. Should give you 45/50% output from the heat pump. Run the circ pump on setting 2 to start with. 

 

Where are you in the UK out of interest ..??

[PTUK]

15 minutes ago, PeterW said:

So .... I would bin off the blender, connect the flow from the ASHP through a butterfly valve direct to the manifold. You will somehow need to add an 8 litre expansion vessel in here, nothing else as it’s just a closed system. You’ll need a fill point too but you could be clever and use the drain valve on one end of the manifold as these don’t have one way valves on them. 

 

From the return, run through a mag / particle filter and then use a length of copper pipe as the sensor section for the pipe stat which could be where your pump goes. Those canister filters make it easy to add inhibitor or antifreeze and you’ll need about 10 litres. Only add it after you’ve filled the whole of the loops with water though as you’ll just end up with lots of air otherwise. 

 

I’d consider using the Wunda self setting heads to regulate the flow - not expensive either. It will regulate the flow to 7c but you  will need the bypass as it could shut the lot down and the ASHP may go into overheat mode. 

 

You could link port 4 flow and return through a pipe and shut it down so that there is a bit of restriction with a valve or you can do this by taking the manifold apart and removing the drain valves from the ends. These should be standard 3/4 thread so put one on the bottom manifold as a drain off, take the other and remove its vent plug and put that in the top rail in place of the flow valve. 

 

You need to run the ASHP on setting 4 which means from memory that the positive from the 24v goes to A5, and the negative goes to A2. Should give you 45/50% output from the heat pump. Run the circ pump on setting 2 to start with. 

 

Where are you in the UK out of interest ..??

 

Ok some of this understand and some not. Total newby sorry.

 

"I would bin off the blender" - yes easy, also easy to add the 8 litre expansion vessel here.

 

"connect the flow from the ASHP through a butterfly valve direct to the manifold" - can I use the ball valve currently between the pump and the manifold (circled in pink)?

 

"You’ll need a fill point too but you could be clever and use the drain valve on one end of the manifold as these don’t have one way valves on them." - can i leave the fill with the bleeder (circled purple) and the drain with the pressure gauge (circled blue) where they are and just add a small loop between flow and return on port 4?

 

"return, run through a mag / particle filter and then use a length of copper pipe as the sensor section for the pipe stat which could be where your pump goes." - yes easy, also add antifreeze here.

 

"I’d consider using the Wunda self setting heads to regulate the flow - not expensive either. It will regulate the flow to 7c but you  will need the bypass as it could shut the lot down and the ASHP may go into overheat mode." - I am concerned about shutting flow down with actuators / heads do you think it will be ok without?

 

"run the ASHP on setting 4 which means from memory that the positive from the 24v goes to A5, and the negative goes to A2. Should give you 45/50%" - So I just use the grey box for the 24 volt power supply inside it? there doesn't seem to be much more than that in there anyway.

 

"Where are you in the UK out of interest ..??" - I'm in rural Lincolnshire near Boston no gas or oil.

[PeterW]

The IVT box runs 100% or nothing, it bridges the A1-A2-A3 connections. You’re going to need to break that up as 100% will cook the floor. 

 

You need to balance all the loops hence why I suggested the Wunda actuators - they balance flow and return to delta 7c which is ideal - set the pipe stat to 7c lower than rhe flow you need and it will control the floor temperature. 

 

Those valves you have circled are ball/butterfly valves - use them to isolate the manifold. 

 

And you can bridge the 4th port but you have to put a valve in there somewhere as otherwise the resistance will be nothing and you’ll get no flow through the floor. 

[PTUK]

15 hours ago, PeterW said:

The IVT box runs 100% or nothing, it bridges the A1-A2-A3 connections. You’re going to need to break that up as 100% will cook the floor. 

 

You need to balance all the loops hence why I suggested the Wunda actuators - they balance flow and return to delta 7c which is ideal - set the pipe stat to 7c lower than rhe flow you need and it will control the floor temperature. 

 

Those valves you have circled are ball/butterfly valves - use them to isolate the manifold. 

 

And you can bridge the 4th port but you have to put a valve in there somewhere as otherwise the resistance will be nothing and you’ll get no flow through the floor. 

Ok thanks PeterW really appreciate all this help.

 

I’m going to install everything as you suggested including the Wunda actuators and a ball, valve in the bridge link for the 4th loop.

 

“The IVT box runs 100% or nothing, it bridges the A1-A2-A3 connections. You’re going to need to break that up as 100% will cook the floor.” - I understand this bit and how to set it for 45% but if it’s very cold like -8  does the IVT need to step up to the next power step? Did any of you guys ever experience such cold weather? Did any of you guys considered a multi way rotary switch to manually add or reduce the % power of the IVT in extreme cold?

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by PTUK

[jack]

20 hours ago, ProDave said:

I used to be a Grundfos fan, but have to say I was taken by the Wilo at how refined and silent it was.  I only used it as a substitute as I had one spare, if I am buying another to replace the other IBO it will be another Wilo that I buy.

 

We have a Wilo on our UFH manifold. Impressive bit of kit - utterly silent when running.

[PeterW]

@PTUK you may struggle with a switch due to the combination of the contacts - it’s a binary tree from 0-7 so to go up or down you would potentially have to disconnect certain pairs of wires....!

[Jeremy Harris]

Might a binary rotary switch be an option?  I have a feeling that I may have one or two around somewhere, goodness knows where they are though!

[Ed Davies]

Any 3-pole rotary switch with sufficient positions will do it.

[PTUK]

I don’t know if the switch is required it was just a thought I wanted to run by you guys. The only reason i’m using Grundfos pumps is I have a few spare.

 

Few more questions now please guys.

 

1 On the Wunda self balancing actuator there are four cables two clip onto the flow and return and I assume one is neutral and the other go to pin 7 on the thermostat in the pic?  

2 It is one big room with three loops to avoid joints in the floor I plan on using just one thermostat but can I run all three Wunda from pin 7 on one thermostat?

3 Do I use pin 3 & 4 to start and stop the ASHP and the pump at the same time?

4 The heating loop must be pressure tested before the screed is 5 bar ok?

 

thanks for all your help guys very much appreciated.

 

 

[testom]

Hello @PTUK

 

I will put few words from me. 

This ASHP needs approx 25l/min of liquid flow to run without errors. Make sure you can provide that kind of flow. Otherwise you will get errors.

 

To run this ASHP on 42% or 33% (you dont need more output power for 45m2) you need to keep only one active input- A3 for 33% or A2 for 42%.

To choose between  power modes simply you can use two way switch.

You can even put 2 gang 2 way switch from Wickes for £1.50  and you will be able to choose between 33%,42% % 53% of its power. Keep it simple.

I also suggest to separate ASHP liquid loop from the house internal istalation (just like I did) with plate heat exchanger. No further worries in terms on outside temp. dropping below zero and unstable liquid flow at the ASHP. 

Happy to provide some more info/drawings if needed.

 

And at last- yes 5bar is the correct figure for pressure test. 

 

 

[PTUK]

21 hours ago, testom said:

Hello @PTUK

 

I will put few words from me. 

This ASHP needs approx 25l/min of liquid flow to run without errors. Make sure you can provide that kind of flow. Otherwise you will get errors.

 

To run this ASHP on 42% or 33% (you dont need more output power for 45m2) you need to keep only one active input- A3 for 33% or A2 for 42%.

To choose between  power modes simply you can use two way switch.

You can even put 2 gang 2 way switch from Wickes for £1.50  and you will be able to choose between 33%,42% % 53% of its power. Keep it simple.

I also suggest to separate ASHP liquid loop from the house internal istalation (just like I did) with plate heat exchanger. No further worries in terms on outside temp. dropping below zero and unstable liquid flow at the ASHP. 

Happy to provide some more info/drawings if needed.

 

And at last- yes 5bar is the correct figure for pressure test. 

 

 

 

Hello and thanks for your reply.

 

how big is your  separate ASHP loop? You run a separate pump to a heat exchanger inside?

 

if I do go with this then I could potentially have a three way valve from this heat exchanger split to the UFH and to DHW? 

[testom]

11 hours ago, PTUK said:

 

Hello and thanks for your reply.

 

how big is your  separate ASHP loop? You run a separate pump to a heat exchanger inside?

 

if I do go with this then I could potentially have a three way valve from this heat exchanger split to the UFH and to DHW? 

Please check my previous posts. I`ve uploaded few pics there, where you can see entire ASHP separate loop (filled with glycol). Capacity of this loop is approx 5.5l.

And yes-I am using separate pumps. 

One circ. pump inside ASHP loop (pictured), and two other pumps on internal CH instalation- DHW and CH separate.

You can use  3way motorised valve from h.exchanger to split to UFH and DHW.

Just remember- for DHW you will need separate "simple logic control unit" (thermostat etc.etc.) as you need to run ASHP at approx 60 degree of C.

 

I do not have a 3 way valve fitted at my installation.

Instead I installed so called "flap valve". Simple valve - no extra cables needed, last forever.

[testom]

On 03/09/2018 at 11:18, PeterW said:

By way of update. 

 

The controller power works in reverse to what is expected :

 

A5 - B1 +24v

A1-A3 0v

B2-B3 0v

 

 

 

@PeterW I have found that B2 & B3 terminal gives +24V as a output signal. 

I have finnaly plugged two small LED`s there.

And I must say this LED`s gives  nice indication to what is actually going on with ASHP. 

 

[testom]

On 27/11/2018 at 17:18, testom said:

Highest temp I get at 77% is 62C. Never tried on full power. But I will play with it in the day or two. Interesting.

BTW @JSHarris - I did quoted online low temp radiators from local supplyer. Replacing all 14 radiators will cost me ... 3300Euros.

Question is- will this be wort it of doing? 

 

 

By the way of update. All my current panel steel radiators will get replaced to aluminium radiators.

Delivery expected next week. Can`t wait to replace it all.

And the price was 1/3 to what I was asked to pay for special low temp radiators.

[PeterW]

2 hours ago, testom said:

@PeterW I have found that B2 & B3 terminal gives +24V as a output signal. 

I have finnaly plugged two small LED`s there.

And I must say this LED`s gives  nice indication to what is actually going on with ASHP. 

 

 

B2 & B3 are a logic gate - you are correct that they give 24v but they need to be taken to ground to get a signal. 

 

The outputs are as follows :

 

B3	B2	Operating mode
1	1	Normal
1	0	Restricted
0	1	Defrost
0	0	Failure/Power off

So if you have LEDs then you will need to  ensure the pair have some sort of key to what the combination means.

[PTUK]

2 hours ago, testom said:

Please check my previous posts. I`ve uploaded few pics there, where you can see entire ASHP separate loop (filled with glycol). Capacity of this loop is approx 5.5l.

And yes-I am using separate pumps. 

One circ. pump inside ASHP loop (pictured), and two other pumps on internal CH instalation- DHW and CH separate.

You can use  3way motorised valve from h.exchanger to split to UFH and DHW.

Just remember- for DHW you will need separate "simple logic control unit" (thermostat etc.etc.) as you need to run ASHP at approx 60 degree of C.

 

I do not have a 3 way valve fitted at my installation.

Instead I installed so called "flap valve". Simple valve - no extra cables needed, last forever.

 

With only 5 litres in your ASHP loop then I’m sure I’ll be ok with just my 3 x UFH loops total 45 litres with the ASHP and UFH running as a stand alone system using the suggestions from PeterW - this is currently my preferred option.

 

However I do have a pair of spare inputs to my hot water cylinder and if possible I would like to dump some excess heat into DHW but not lower than 50-60 degree c

 

What is this flap valve you are referring to does it only allow water through if it’s above a certain temperature?

 

 

[PeterW]

Flap valves are used on the continent for water flow - quite neat but do need a pump to make them work. 

 

You're about on the edge of the performance an IVT can give asking for 55c water from it. Is the DHW tank new or is it quite small as you could drop the temperature on that however you do really need a high power / surface area coil to get the most out of the heat pump into the tank. 

 

Alternate option would be to use a buffer but put the coil in line with the cold supply into the DHW tank and use as a pre heater. Adds a bit more complexity but no moving parts