Insulated block n beam.

[Russell griffiths]

http://www.beamshield.co.uk/

 

could anybody look at the block n beam product in the link and pick out any faults or problems they can spot. 

 

We have some height issues and need to find a solution that doesn’t involve adding height on top of the beam and block, so including the insulation in the block height will help me tremendously. 

 

Anybody used a system similar to this and what’s your thoughts on the amount of insulation around the beam. 

Cheers russ. 

[Dee J]

Had a look at their video... if you need a suspended floor then that looks like a good approach. Especially the plus version with the underbeam details. Wasn't listening... can you use a standard screed or do you need something stronger?

But as ever, detail is key. A lot of precision and care needed to get the best performance.

[dpmiller]

how much height do you need/ what kind of screed depth are you at?

[nod]

  On 29/04/2018 at 08:32, Russell griffiths said:

http://www.beamshield.co.uk/

 

could anybody look at the block n beam product in the link and pick out any faults or problems they can spot. 

 

We have some height issues and need to find a solution that doesn’t involve adding height on top of the beam and block, so including the insulation in the block height will help me tremendously. 

 

Anybody used a system similar to this and what’s your thoughts on the amount of insulation around the beam. 

Cheers russ. 

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Hi Russel

 

Not to put a dampener on things we saw this system at the NEC

and loved it 

BUT

 

a few weeks later I went doing some framing on a wimpy job noticed that this system was being used Two ground workers were putting the floors into four detached houses

Superfast to lay

But they told me that there was problems in the six occupied houses 

Lots of cracking on the screeds and movement around skirtings 

Fortunately none where tiled

But carpets were taken up and self levelling was put down

They had used a 75 sc screed

The floors were very springy before the screed If I had of used this system I would have gone for 50 mil pumped concrete to be safe 

 

[Nickfromwales]

  On 29/04/2018 at 09:17, dpmiller said:

how much height do you need/ what kind of screed depth are you at?

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Yup. Some vital bits of info missing from the OP  

 

  On 29/04/2018 at 08:50, Dee J said:

if you need a suspended floor then that looks like a good approach. Especially the plus version with the underbeam details.

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Deffo a good choice for B&B imo. Certainly WAY better than what I've seen to date.  

Any additional depth under the void where you could add more insulation to the underslung element ? 

 

  On 29/04/2018 at 09:18, nod said:

Lots of cracking on the screeds and movement around skirtings 

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I recon these would largely be down to poor fitting / failed observations of the basics. With a thicker screed ( concrete would be my preference ) you could easily fit a 6mm mesh into that layer to mitigate against cracking and also to give it some serious weight for the laying and compression aspect. Dry S/C screed wouldn't really cut it at such a thin layer as you could only fortify that with fibres and hope for the best. 

 

So. @Russell griffiths whats the depths / heights etc please !!

 

Edit : you could possibly use a stainless mesh with thinner screed maybe. Are you having UFH pipes in the 'screed'?

[Mr Punter]

I have had Beamshield supplied and fitted by Charcon.  They supplied the beams, craned them in and installed the polystyrene.  My only critisism is that it took ages to get Sprigvale to pick up the surplus polystyrene but I think this is an industry wide issue as it is expensive to transport to a recycling facility.

 

We got another firm to do 75mm concrete and mesh.  You can tell the supplier what loadings you want it for.  We wanted to build blockwork ground floor walls and got a spec accordingly.  You would not know it from a solid concrete floor.

 

Cost was £17,300 for the Beamshield and £5,700 for the concreting about 340m2, so £68 per metre.  2 years ago.  Probably more for a smaller area.

[Russell griffiths]

Ok, here are they problems I’ve got to over come. 

If you look at the pic you will see the big wet thing, that’s our lake just to the back of our plot. 

The closest part of the house is 2.4m from the wet bit

we had a flood risk assessment which said the floor level needed to be set up in the air, which is fine, but it is a fair bit above the original ground level, so lifting it any higher I would like to avoid but will if necessary. 

 

Floor build up from top down. 

20mm tiles and adhesive 

75mm structural concrete topping

ufh fixed to eps

200mm eps insulation 

175mm floor beams

175mm void

top of ring beam

piles.  

 

So with this makeup it puts the top of the ringbeam 650mm below finish floor level, which puts it just above the wet bit

i have excavated down to this level and I’m still dry but I’m really not wanting to dig down any further, as no amount of pumping will keep the gazillions of litres of water at bay. 

 

What i need to achieve is get the floor makeup thinner so I can  keep from excavating down. 

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Russell griffiths

[Russell griffiths]

I wonder if I can get my own insulated floor beam system signed of by our engineer 

 

why can I not use 100mm xps inbetween the beams where the blocks would go and cover with 50mm xps all over and then 75mm concrete topping with mesh and ufh. ?

[Temp]

Just remember the insulation has to hold up the concrete while it's wet (and possibly people laying the mesh and UFH).Some plastic sheeting should be used between insulation and screed.

[Mr Punter]

  On 29/04/2018 at 15:23, Temp said:

Just remember the insulation has to hold up the concrete while it's wet (and possibly people laying the mesh and ugh).Some plastic sheeting should be used between insulation and screed.

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Yes the beamshield stuff is sculpted to fit the beams snugly.  We had the Plus version and it wraps under the beams as well.  Fairly solid to walk on.  We had very wide beams and there was a fair amount for the insulation to bear on.  @Russell griffiths DIY option is not a bad shout though...  Maybe reduce the insulation width to, say, 400mm, as I think it would be strong enough and fit with sheet widths.  Once you have the top 50mm, it will be quite solid.

[Nickfromwales]

  On 29/04/2018 at 15:23, Temp said:

Just remember the insulation has to hold up the concrete while it's wet (and possibly people laying the mesh and UFH).Some plastic sheeting should be used between insulation and screed.

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Doubling up with a thick DPC should suffice. 

Excellent point though as nothing could be worse than coming in the following morning and saying "where the hell has the concrete gone?!?"  

[Nickfromwales]

  On 29/04/2018 at 12:00, Russell griffiths said:

Ok, here are they problems I’ve got to over come. 

If you look at the pic you will see the big wet thing, that’s our lake just to the back of our plot. 

The closest part of the house is 2.4m from the wet bit

we had a flood risk assessment which said the floor level needed to be set up in the air, which is fine, but it is a fair bit above the original ground level, so lifting it any higher I would like to avoid but will if necessary. 

 

Floor build up from top down. 

20mm tiles and adhesive 

75mm structural concrete topping

ufh fixed to eps

200mm eps insulation 

175mm floor beams

175mm void

top of ring beam

piles.  

 

So with this makeup it puts the top of the ringbeam 650mm below finish floor level, which puts it just above the wet bit

i have excavated down to this level and I’m still dry but I’m really not wanting to dig down any further, as no amount of pumping will keep the gazillions of litres of water at bay. 

 

What i need to achieve is get the floor makeup thinner so I can  keep from excavating down. 

 

 

Expand  

Why not do away with the concrete layer, change to higher performing 200kpa insulation and go for an overlay UFH solution integrating it into the 200mm? Would save you 75mm.

The insulation can all be bonded down so theres no bounce, and the stud work would sit quite happily on bonded 22mm P5.

Why the structural element to the concrete layer? Do you have to transfer weight down to the subfloor? 

[bissoejosh]

  On 29/04/2018 at 17:49, Nickfromwales said:

Why not do away with the concrete layer, change to higher performing 200kpa insulation and go for an overlay UFH solution integrating it into the 200mm? Would save you 75mm.

 The insulation can all be bonded down so theres no bounce, and the stud work would sit quite happily on bonded 22mm P5.

 Why the structural element to the concrete layer? Do you have to transfer weight down to the subfloor? 

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Now that's an interesting proposition. Would you be allowed EPS / XPS without a topping from a fire point of view? Another issue could be the camber in the beams which a screed/topping lets you grade out. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by bissoejosh

[bissoejosh]

  On 29/04/2018 at 12:07, Russell griffiths said:

I wonder if I can get my own insulated floor beam system signed of by our engineer 

 

why can I not use 100mm xps inbetween the beams where the blocks would go and cover with 50mm xps all over and then 75mm concrete topping with mesh and ufh. ?

Expand  

If you'd said this 3 months ago I'd have been all ears and tried to do the same. Even a few hundred quid to an engineer to prove the loadings would surely save a fortune compared to the 'off the shelf' versions!

[Nickfromwales]

  On 29/04/2018 at 17:54, bissoejosh said:

Now that's an interesting proposition. Would you be allowed EPS / XPS without a topping from a fire point of view? Another issue could be the camber in the beams which a screed/topping lets you grade out. 

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I had thought of the camber. May be able to sort that directly over with a builders screed / SLC, but also why not do away with the B&B and go timber if there is no requirement for transferring loads to founds? One steel in the middle and string the rest of the span with treated joists. Just punting some ideas out there  If your paying for an insulated system for block and beam then wouldn't timber be cheaper and better ? 

Is this 2- storey? Steel/s can go in to suit the stairs or any other critical point if necessary? 8"x3" joists at ~400mm centres would be rock solid, perform better thermally and accept the aluminium spreader plates directly.   

[Russell griffiths]

The reason for the concrete topping is I like a solid feel to things, whole house will be tiled so not really interested in timber,

 

ive just spent a couple of hours with a laser level and tape and I think by decreasing the gap under the floor to 150mm, using a 150mm beams and going for a better insulation so I can decrease the thickness, I think I can keep from having to dig down anymore

 

so this weeks panic over

thanks for all the input. ?

[NSS]

@Russell griffithswhatever solution you go with, and whatever it costs, it'll be worth it for that view. Stunning location ?

[Temp]

 

  On 29/04/2018 at 20:19, Russell griffiths said:

whole house will be tiled

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Remember to put expansion gaps at doors. We screeded two rooms and then tiled right through with an opus pattern stone. The two areas of screed appear to have shrunk very slightly towards there own centres pulling apart/cracking at the doorway. Needless to say this curved crack propagated through the stone.

 

This despite a lot of effort to do it right, including using fibres and covering the screed so it didn't dry too quickly initially, then waiting a long time for it to dry before laying the stone using a flexible adhesive etc. Just forgot/didn't know we should put an expansion gap in.

[Patrick]

  On 29/04/2018 at 10:46, Mr Punter said:

I have had Beamshield supplied and fitted by Charcon.  They supplied the beams, craned them in and installed the polystyrene.  My only critisism is that it took ages to get Sprigvale to pick up the surplus polystyrene but I think this is an industry wide issue as it is expensive to transport to a recycling facility.

 

We got another firm to do 75mm concrete and mesh.  You can tell the supplier what loadings you want it for.  We wanted to build blockwork ground floor walls and got a spec accordingly.  You would not know it from a solid concrete floor. 

  

Cost was £17,300 for the Beamshield and £5,700 for the concreting about 340m2, so £68 per metre.  2 years ago.  Probably more for a smaller area.

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 @Mr Punter How happy are you with the result . Any cracks or similar? read that somewhere . If you still have Plans from the Floor system- specially the wall/floor connections , please PM me . I will Put in either Beamshield/Tetris/Jetfloor but not decided yet which one.