Desperate advice for access road

[Vijay]

That's another issue. Surely this now gives me ammunition to get the developer to either build the road to a certain standard or protect it and take responsibility for the road

[PeterW]

41 minutes ago, Vijay said:

That's another issue. Surely this now gives me ammunition to get the developer to either build the road to a certain standard or protect it and take responsibility for the road

 

Nope - don’t go there ..!!

 

Use the PP condition in its entirety and send to him as if he chooses to ignore it then advise you will go to the Council Enforcement Officer as he is breaching your rights as a third party on the PP.  

 

Let someone else have your fights and get on with the stuff you can control. 

[Dreadnaught]

I am sure you will, but tread carefully. I would have a (free) chat with a friendly local solicitor to get a second opinion on tactics. Choose one that has some experience of the planning system. Any one that handles conveyancing would do, I would think.

[lizzie]

2 hours ago, Vijay said:

 

Sadly he's retired

Is it just him or is his firm still going? If not who took over his papers.  Files have to be kept for 6 years someone must have responsibility for them.  That really is your best route if you can take that as they will have all the original documents. TBH I would not try and resolve something like this from internet links I think you need proper professional legal advice and by the sound of it fairly promptly too.

 

 

[Vijay]

55 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

Nope - don’t go there ..!!

 

Use the PP condition in its entirety and send to him as if he chooses to ignore it then advise you will go to the Council Enforcement Officer as he is breaching your rights as a third party on the PP.  

 

Let someone else have your fights and get on with the stuff you can control. 

 

I thought about it and completely agree. If I mention doing the road to a certain standard, I'm condoning the road being built and supporting his actions in some way.

 

I'm sure they do but double checking, do planning conditions last until the end of everything being signed off? The decision date was Feb 2013 and just wondered if it was a coincidence that it's just over 5 years

[Vijay]

49 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

I am sure you will, but tread carefully. I would have a (free) chat with a friendly local solicitor to get a second opinion on tactics. Choose one that has some experience of the planning system. Any one that handles conveyancing would do, I would think.

 

But is it a legal matter now as it's not about my contract anymore, it's about the planning condition which the council would enforce?

[Ferdinand]

3 hours ago, Vijay said:

 

There is nothing in the contract about road damage. It only says that all the plot owners have to maintain the road.  He has since said by email that if anyone damages the road (which he still owns) then they would be responsible for the repair

 

Yes, but there all sorts of principles of law which are assumed in any contract and determine how it is interpreted.

 

These apply regardless.

[Ferdinand]

Planning Conditions will last until they are fulfilled, varied by another planning application, or potentially until they are ignored for decades.

 

I am just about to get my neighbour to repair his wall under a PC from 2000.

[AliG]

I wouldn't rely on the planning condition helping you out, the council have to enforce it and may be happy with what he is doing, even if you are not. It seems that it mainly relates to safety and access. I thin it would be tough to add he was in breach by constructing a road earlier than expected, certainly not enough of a breach for the council to care.

 

it sounds like there is nothing written in the contract that stops him building the road. However, it also seems that it is quite stupid and unreasonable to do so before all 4 houses are completed. Is the relationship good enough to simply ask him why the urgency and point out it is not a good idea?

 

It may be worth getting a solicitor to put in writing that he has sold you a building plot and you had a reasonable expectation of access for building on the plot. (You could just do it yourself, but as it is not written down I think it requires some legal advice) Thus you will not take responsibility for any costs if an unsuitable road surface is installed before building is complete. This puts the risk back on him if he builds the road. Is it really worth it for him to argue about it and not delay. Getting the other owners to support you would also help in this.

 

As others have said I used to live in a steel that was entirely constructed of block paving, at one point we had a crane in the street to lift concrete floor slabs up for our extension and no damage was done, a properly constructed road should be able to take construction traffic. But it is better to have clarity in the situation.

 

 

[Temp]

What do the "approved plans" say about the road construction. The pavingexpert website has construction details suitable for a public highway..

 

"This page details the procedure used to design a block or brick pavement for public highways, car parks, freight yards etc."...

http://www.pavingexpert.com/blokroad.htm

 

How do they compare?

 

Presumably rubbish lorries (and oil tankers?) will also use this road?  Perhaps tell other owners that if the road isn't built to the required standard you won't accept responsibility for any damage caused. Point out it will be impossible to prove if any particular damage is caused by rubbish lorries or delivery lorries to your plot.

 

Will it remain a private road or will it be adopted? If it's going to be adopted then there are minimum standards of construction required. However many councils will wait a year after the road has been constructed, then they will inspect it and ask for any damage to be rectified before they will actually adopt it.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Temp

[Vijay]

2 hours ago, AliG said:

I wouldn't rely on the planning condition helping you out, the council have to enforce it and may be happy with what he is doing, even if you are not. It seems that it mainly relates to safety and access. I thin it would be tough to add he was in breach by constructing a road earlier than expected, certainly not enough of a breach for the council to care.

 

 

I've no real dealing with planning enforcement but how could they not care, it's a pretty definitive condition and pointless if someone decides they want to ignore it. If it relates to safety and access, then that doesn't go away until construction work is complete surely?

[Vijay]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

What do the "approved plans" say about the road construction. The pavingexpert website has construction details suitable for a public highway..

 

"This page details the procedure used to design a block or brick pavement for public highways, car parks, freight yards etc."...

http://www.pavingexpert.com/blokroad.htm

 

How do they compare?

 

Presumably rubbish lorries (and oil tankers?) will also use this road?  Perhaps tell other owners that if the road isn't built to the required standard you won't accept responsibility for any damage caused. Point out it will be impossible to prove if any particular damage is caused by rubbish lorries or delivery lorries to your plot.

 

Will it remain a private road or will it be adopted? If it's going to be adopted then there are minimum standards of construction required. However many councils will wait a year after the road has been constructed, then they will inspect it and ask for any damage to be rectified before they will actually adopt it.

 

 

There is nothing on the plans  apart from Tegula block paving described as the finish. The only detail there is is where they have to use cellweb for tree protection over part of the road. I have asked for this detail numerous times but haven't succeeded in getting an answer.

 

No rubbish lorries as bins are emptied at the front, but yes someone could potentially have heating oil.

 

It is a private road and will remain a private road owned by the developer.

[AliG]

1 hour ago, Vijay said:

 

I've no real dealing with planning enforcement but how could they not care, it's a pretty definitive condition and pointless if someone decides they want to ignore it. If it relates to safety and access, then that doesn't go away until construction work is complete surely?

 

That’s all true but a block paving road would still be safe. It just might not look good if heavy traffic damages it. As long as he puts down something safe enough to use they might be happy enough.

 

Planners are a law unto themselves they might care and they might not. The problem is that you have no way of knowing so it’s hard to rely on them.

[epsilonGreedy]

4 hours ago, AliG said:

I wouldn't rely on the planning condition helping you out, the council have to enforce it and may be happy with what he is doing, even if you are not. It seems that it mainly relates to safety and access. I thin it would be tough to add he was in breach by constructing a road earlier than expected, certainly not enough of a breach for the council to care.

 

 

I agree the OP should not rely on Council enforcement to solve this problem, however:

1. The existence of the 3 month clause which makes reference to the final substantially completed house, creates an expectation with all parties that final road surfacing occurs towards the end of the development.
2. There is a clear planning office mandated condition for final surfacing to happen after completion of the final house.
3. Now all that is needed to wrap this up in favour of the OP is a clause in the contract worded something like, "the seller warrants to the purchaser that he/she/it will implement, adhere to and comply with all planning conditions required by the Council".

[Vijay]

 

4 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I agree the OP should not rely on Council enforcement to solve this problem, however:

1. The existence of the 3 month clause which makes reference to the final substantially completed house, creates an expectation with all parties that final road surfacing occurs towards the end of the development.
2. There is a clear planning office mandated condition for final surfacing to happen after completion of the final house.
3. Now all that is needed to wrap this up in favour of the OP is a clause in the contract worded something like, "the seller warrants to the purchaser that he/she/it will implement, adhere to and comply with all planning conditions required by the Council".

Thought 3 was a given and what planning enforcement are there for

[epsilonGreedy]

8 minutes ago, Vijay said:

Thought 3 was a given and what planning enforcement are there for

 

 

No. Planning enforcement exists to uphold the interests of the community, you should not expect the Council to pursue a matter on behalf of your commercial interests.

 

Your case does not sound hopeless but it will take a trained legal mind to demonstrate that the planning condition and the 3-month contract clause can be combined in your favour to create a legal basis to threaten the seller.

[Vijay]

32 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

No. Planning enforcement exists to uphold the interests of the community, you should not expect the Council to pursue a matter on behalf of your commercial interests.

 

Your case does not sound hopeless but it will take a trained legal mind to demonstrate that the planning condition and the 3-month contract clause can be combined in your favour to create a legal basis to threaten the seller.

So why on earth would they add a condition that they wouldn't enforce, makes no sense to me

[epsilonGreedy]

4 hours ago, Vijay said:

So why on earth would they add a condition that they wouldn't enforce, makes no sense to me

 

 

90% of the time such conditions are enforced voluntarily because most people do not want to experience aggro from a branch of government. For the rest the planning department will decide where to allocate their enforcement time.

 

Anyhow we are into hypotheticals, you are assuming the planning office does not act and that your premix concrete delivery wagon took a tight turn on a hot dry day and chewed up the finished road.

Edited April 10, 2018 by epsilonGreedy

[newhome]

You may also be able to protect your interests and attempt some risk mitigation to a degree if the road does happen to be completed before your large deliveries arrive by telling suppliers that they need to be careful and may be held responsible for damage to the road if anything happens. Glass half full and all that 

Edited April 10, 2018 by newhome

[RichS]

8 hours ago, newhome said:

You may also be able to protect your interests and attempt some risk mitigation to a degree if the road does happen to be completed before your large deliveries arrive by telling suppliers that they need to be careful and may be held responsible for damage to the road if anything happens. Glass half full and all that 

 

In which case the suppliers will refuse to come onto this area. They will drop off any goods at the entrance and then that's another problem you have to deal with (especially if it's a concrete wagon)

[newhome]

22 minutes ago, RichS said:

 

In which case the suppliers will refuse to come onto this area. They will drop off any goods at the entrance and then that's another problem you have to deal with (especially if it's a concrete wagon)

 

Then you just ask them to tell the drivers to be careful to get the message across. Different strokes for different folk (or suppliers). There doesn’t have to be a one size fits all approach. 

[Temp]

Sadly it's very common for planners not to take enforcement action. They don't have the manpower or money to take someone to court unless the breech is severe. 

 

I think it's extremely unlikely they would take the developer to court to make him make rip up the block paving just because he laid it early. 

[bassanclan]

It may actually be a good thing that he's building the road now.

I assume that the road will have to be made to a certain standard and have a 12 month warranty as to its quality of workmanship.

 

If he is planning a quick cheap install it will soon be found out when your wagons roll over it during the build and can be repaired under warranty. Otherwise it might go unnoticed until the final plot is built, or someone moves house etc, by which time it may be too late.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

Sadly it's very common for planners not to take enforcement action. They don't have the manpower or money to take someone to court unless the breech is severe. 

 

I think it's extremely unlikely they would take the developer to court to make him make rip up the block paving just because he laid it early. 

 I don’t disagree however the perceived threat is what makes people think. 

 

If he breaches the planning then then there is a clear admission on his part of ignoring statute law and him suggesting you are liable for anything becomes a moot point in a civil case. 

 

Get a solicitors letter based on the planning clause and then see what happens next ... 

[Ferdinand]

@Vijay

 

One point we have not explored is whether the site is owned personally or as a limited company.

 

If it is a limited company he could be doing it to close it and walk away as soon as possible, so he can get his last lot of money out.

 

Ferdinand