Planning permission (close to a listed building).

[Russdl]

Hello all.

 

We've applied for planning permission which involves demolishing a bungalow and replacing it with a contemporary looking house. 

 

The conservation officer raised some concerns which we addressed and he has come back saying he has:

 

"no issue with the orientation, design, materials or otherwise per se, it is the impact on the setting of the Listed Building that needs to be addressed."

 

What exactly does 'impact on the setting' mean? Is it defined anywhere (I can't find anything) or will it just be the conservation officers personal opinion?

 

Thanks - Russ.

[dpmiller]

how close is it?

[Russdl]

13m.

 

In the Google Earth/Sketchup image below the orange roof is the listed building. The black roof the existing bungalow and the white roof the proposed redevelopment (it won't be white roofed!). The proposed ridge height is 2.7m higher.

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

Have a look at Martin Goodall's planning blog http://planninglawblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/listed-buildings-and-their-setting.html

 

If the building is grade I you may be in trouble.  It may be that you need a statement explaining how the proposal does not impact so adversely as to merit a refusal.  It could be that there are also some positive impacts.

[Jeremy Harris]

We found that our planners applied a restriction on any development within 100m of a listed building, that may adversely affect it's setting.  In our case we are dead opposite a grade II listed building, so despite being (at that time) slightly outside the Conservation Area, we had pretty tight restrictions imposed on the design and materials.  I even had a condition that meant a sample of every external material used had to be pre-approved by the planning officer.

 

We were limited to two choices of wall finish, either timber clad in a non-contemporary style, using native timber, or stone clad with stone from a specific (and long closed) quarry................

 

TBH, once we'd got our heads around the restrictions and thought through what we could do, it wasn't really an issue, apart from being a bit of the PITA in terms of getting samples approved.

[lizzie]

Have you had a chat with the conservation officer to see exactly what his concerns are and how you can address them?  It may be that you need to engage the help of a planning consultant (not a lawyer) for this aspect they are very used to dealing with this sort of thing. It could be a few hundred £'s well spent to get it right and approved first time.

[ultramods]

I gained planning permission for a house within a conservation area in December. First application was rejected, for similar reasons. I found meeting with the councils conservation officer, councils planner and my architect useful. 

 

However before any meeting decide with your architect what you would/wouldn't be willing to compromise on as we found a lot of it was negotiating with them

Edited February 27, 2018 by ultramods

[Cambs]

13 minutes ago, lizzie said:

Have you had a chat with the conservation officer to see exactly what his concerns are and how you can address them?  It may be that you need to engage the help of a planning consultant (not a lawyer) for this aspect they are very used to dealing with this sort of thing. It could be a few hundred £'s well spent to get it right and approved first time.

 

We are in similar circumstances to you - our plot is alongside a Grade II listed building.  Our conservation officer was not amenable to a chat - it all had to be done via applications and comments on the website, with the occasional email exchange.  We engaged a Planning Consultant and it proved to be a godsend - we wouldn’t have succeeded without him.  Local knowledge and recommendations are key for engaging with the right consultant.  You could start by looking at your local councils planning website to see where a planning consultant has been used to support an application - try looking for similar applications e.g. close to listed building and in a conservation area and look for a Design and Access Statement which will often by written by a Planning Consultant.

 

I will PM you with our conservation officer’s comments on our application.  It will help you with some of the laws, policies to look at etc.  I would redact it and post the relevant parts here but I am away at the moment and don’t have the tech with me to be able to edit the PDF.

[Russell griffiths]

Thinking outside the box

is it as simple as having a landscape plan done and incorporating a screening hedge so your proposed house is not visible from the listed building. 

We also used a consultant and don’t believe we would have got planning without them

in the grand scheme of things their fees where less than we have paid our useless architect. 

[lizzie]

 

 

22 minutes ago, Cambs said:

We are in similar circumstances to you - our plot is alongside a Grade II listed building.  Our conservation officer was not amenable to a chat - it all had to be done via applications and comments on the website, with the occasional email exchange.  We engaged a Planning Consultant and it proved to be a godsend - we wouldn’t have succeeded without him.  Local knowledge and recommendations are key for engaging with the right consultant.  You could start by looking at your local councils planning website to see where a planning consultant has been used to support an application - try looking for similar applications e.g. close to listed building and in a conservation area and look for a Design and Access Statement which will often by written by a Planning Consultant.

 

1 hour ago, Russdl said:

We've applied for planning permission which involves demolishing a bungalow and replacing it with a contemporary looking house. 

 

The conservation officer raised some concerns which we addressed and he has come back saying he has:

 

"no issue with the orientation, design, materials or otherwise per se, it is the impact on the setting of the Listed Building that needs to be addressed."

 

What exactly does 'impact on the setting' mean? Is it defined anywhere (I can't find anything) or will it just be the conservation officers personal opinion?

 

My OH is a specialist land and planning lawyer and a legal associate of the RTPI (LARTPI). He deals with all sorts of planning issues (not getting permission but bailing people out of problems afterwards usually) I know he would suggest a few £'s on a planning consultant would be money well spent.  If you don't know one in your area send me your postcode and I can  ask him to do a look up for you for a local one.

[Ferdinand]

Is your plot carved out of the grounds of the Listed Building. If so, you will need to have a conversation about whether you count as being in the "curtiledge" of it. Perhaps with your Architect / Planning Consultant first.

 

Who owns it? If it is someone like the National Trust then you may have problems. You may also have more to deal with if garden features are listed.

 

Could you post the text of the entry from the Register of Listed Buildings? Suggest the text, not an address. Link.

 

13m distance and 5-6m in your garden does not sound like a lot to me, but you will know when conversations start. Suggest being careful to listen first, then go away and consult and reflect, then reply.

 

One more source of information, and possibly references for consultants, may be the Historic Houses Association. Or ask a local estate agent or wise-owl property person.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

As an observation on Conservation Officers, who have a fair bit of clout in circumstances like this (although can be over-ridden by the planning officer I found), they are generally a pretty variable bunch, and not always the easiest people to deal with.

 

I've had to deal with three, two were a complete and absolute PITA, one was pragmatic and fairly helpful.  It seems to be pot luck what sort you get. 

 

One of the ones I dealt with took the initial view that nothing should ever be built or altered within a conservation area (and the rules for doing anything close to a listed building can amount to much the same thing I found) and so started off by objecting to everything and anything.  His intention was clearly to put so many obstacles in our way that we'd give up and just go away.

 

The first one I dealt with on our new build was pretty obstructive, and frankly not very knowledgeable about the local vernacular.  I famously had a public debate (some might call it an argument) in the street with her, when she was standing outside our very overgrown plot, saying that it was mandatory that we clad the exterior in Chilmark stone (the stuff that Salisbury cathedral is built from), with a clay tile or natural slate roof.  I first asked her to point to a house nearby that had either a clay tile or slate roof and she pointed to a bungalow with a concrete tile roof, then the listed building which bizarrely has an asbestos slate roof.  Unimpressed with her knowledge of building materials and having corrected her on what she'd pointed out, I then asked if she could point to an example of a house nearby made from Chilmark stone (which is a creamy coloured stone).  She pointed to the listed building again and I pointed out that it was built from locally quarried Greensand, a dark, greenish coloured stone.  She then pointed to the rubblestone walls of the cottage over the lane.  Again I pointed out that it was mainly Greensand.  She then asked me where I thought there were houses made from Chilmark stone, and I told her there were two, both new builds, and she could easily spot them as she drove through the village as they stuck out like sore thumbs, being a totally different colour to all the older houses.  At this point she told me she had personally approved the stone for those new builds, got in her car and drove off...................

 

As luck would have it there was a change of Conservation Officer and the new one was a lot easier to deal with.  All he strongly objected to was our plan to fit solar panels in the roof elevation facing the listed building.  Our planning officer ignored him on that, as he felt it wasn't an issue.  The post script to this tale is that just before the house was completed our BCO asked if I could give a short Continuing Professional Development session at the house for some planners, building inspectors and the Conservation Officer.  The first to arrive, on a rather wet day, was the Conservation Officer.  The first thing he said as he came in was "I'm so glad that I insisted that you not fit solar panels to the roof".  I asked him if he'd like to step outside and have another look, when he was decent enough to smile and say that if he'd known they could be as discreet as that he would never have objected.............

[Russdl]

Wow, thanks for all the helpful replies. I only turned my back for a minute!

 

To answer some of the posts and questions:

 

The cottage in question is Grade II listed (circled in red) and at the north end of a group of buildings in a conservation area (orange boundary), our bungalow is circled in yellow in the clearer image below.

 

I haven't spoken with the conservation officer yet, I was curious to know what "the impact on the setting of the listed building" actually meant, but I will be in touch with him later by email, not sure if he'll take phone calls - I'll ask.

 

We've had a bit of help from a planning consultant already who advised that there shouldn't be any issues and suggested that I submit the application myself. I guess it's time to get back in touch...

 

3 hours ago, Cambs said:

I will PM you with our conservation officer’s comments on our application

 

That is much appreciated Ronnie, looks like quite a read. I'll get to it now - thanks.

 

3 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

is it as simple as having a landscape plan done and incorporating a screening hedge

 

There are already numerous hedges and trees in situ and something I consequently hadn't considered - but it may help, thanks.

 

3 hours ago, lizzie said:

If you don't know one in your area send me your postcode and I can  ask him to do a look up for you for a local one

 

I'll probably go back to the one we've used before to start with, but thanks for that offer Lizzie.

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Is your plot carved out of the grounds of the Listed Building

 

No, our bungalow is from the '50s and separated from the listed building by a footpath and electricity substation and the listed building is privately owned.

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Suggest being careful to listen first, then go away and consult and reflect, then reply.

 

Wise advice I'm sure, I'll endeavour to do that.

 

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

As luck would have it there was a change of Conservation Officer and the new one was a lot easier to deal with

 

I hope we have the same one Jeremy, we're Wiltshire as well so I suspect there is a high likelihood.

 

Thanks again all.

 

Russ.

 

[Russdl]

6 hours ago, Cambs said:

I will PM you with our conservation officer’s comments on our application.

 

Really appreciated that Ronnie and, as you said, it was a bit of a tough read "why use 1 word when 50 will do?" sprung to mind.

 

I've got back in touch with the planning consultant because I think I'm going to struggle otherwise...

[Russdl]

I'm in a panic now.

 

To update this thread we ended up getting a Heritage Expert to produce a Heritage Statement. A Landscape Architect to produce a 'professional' cross section and photomontage (the conservation officer didn't like my 'amature' versions) and the Planning Consultant updated the Planning Statement for our application.

 

We have not changed any detail of the original application just paid people to use some big words and produce some nice graphics. 

 

The upshot is that we have heard today that "...the Conservation Officer now has no objection to the proposal... therefore I will be recommending the application for approval..." (annoyingly the Conservation Officer apparently drives past the site, and listed building, twice a day, to and from work, but couldn't reach this conclusion without help - I'm not bitter, just exasperated).

 

So, a few months down the line and several hundreds of pounds less in the kitty and it looks like we're on the starting blocks - yippee!

 

Why am I in a panic? Well, all of a sudden it seems that there are a million things I should have been doing in preparation for this day and didn't.

 

I still know so little. Thanks for everyones help thus far, now, where is the 'demolition' forum ?‍♂️

 

Russ.

[Cambs]

Well done for getting permission.  Perseverance paid off. Now for the easy part ?

 

You need to keep an eye out for the Planning conditions, especially with the listed building nearby. You might end up with an Archaeolgist digging your foundations with a teaspoon ....

[Russdl]

Thanks Cambs, and don't joke about the Archaeolgist!!

[vivienz]

Good news. Never assume you have free time- if you think hard enough, there's always something that's been out off to another day!

[Hecateh]

Could.a ... would.a ... should.a ...

 

You are where you are, which is a good few steps further than you were.  There are always things that could have been sooner, differently or not at all. 

 

Some of the things I thought were important actually didn't need doing at all (or at least were of minor importance and not worth worrying about).  These afar far out weighed by things I could have (or should have) done earlier.  The biggest issues are often the things that you don't know that you don't know.

 

As well as what you know you need to do, my suggestion is to read, read, and read some more about future things.  Particularly on here (Buildhub) as you will find, as I'm sure you have already, that someone somewhere has already been through and shared your experience.  

 

Stress and time notwithstanding. You will get there, eventually. AND IT WILL BE WORTH IT  (as I keep telling myself)