At my wits end with brick layers. Advice please.

[flanagaj]

I've refrained from posting on here for fear of asking stupid questions, but I have concluded that on this occasion, I really could do with some guidance.

As you know, we let our first brickie go as his work was substandard.  We waited nearly 8 weeks for the new one to start and he started Monday.  He is making good progress and aside from not listening to me or reading drawings where service lintels are supposed to go, it's ok.  However, when he started, I was really surprised that he did not build up the corners of the house using a laser level, to ensure that the height of the first course would be correct.  Instead, he started at one end and made his way down the 24m length.

He is now at dpc level on the internal leaf and he is 22mm out from one end of the house (excluding garage) 17m to the other end.  Alarm bells are ringing in my head again and I don't know whether I should raise the issue.

It's driving me mad that I have to deal with such incompetent individuals.  I also had to explain to him that he had missed out the lintel for a back inlet gulley.  His response "you don't run a soil pipe into the back of a bottle gulley.  You put the sink waste through the wall and into it."  Clearly, he is wrong, but I am just the dumb IT Programmer who knows feck all.

Just after some help here, as I really don't want to sack another builder and start again.  

[Mr Punter]

The 22mm is annoying but is only 1mm per metre.

 

With the sub structure stuff it will be possible to rectify but I would point out that I expect it built as per drawings.  Better to let him know as he progresses than after he has finished.  Check the drawings each day and go through with him in the morning where you think he might mess up.

[saveasteading]

22mm is a lot. He hasn't a clue other than brick, next brick. 

Probably has never had to set up the coursings/ manage.

 

I've known them like this.

Doors missed out (I'll cut that out later). 

Got no bricks. When did you realise it was getting low? Got no bricks.

 

Ive seen worse if it's any consolation.  The brick course spiralled and was up to window level when noticed. Fortunately I was only engaged to find why it wasn't working.

 

Does it otherwise look OK?

 

22mm now and then what? He gets it back over a few courses or it gets worse. Will he remember windows and get them right. When you reach eaves the roof and gutter will be a challenge to an innocent joiner.

 

you need a proper talk, sat down to keep his attention.

If you think he is worth the risk then

I think I might be tempted to compromise if there really are few options.

 

Tell him to win back that 22mm * by removing and replacing the last course. 11mm correction then again above dpc.

Ask him how he is going to prevent this happening again. 

 

And daily checks by you.

 

* someone on BH who can lay bricks will know better than I.

 

 

 

 

[G and J]

4 hours ago, flanagaj said:

aside from not listening to me or reading drawings where service lintels are supposed to go, it's ok. 

Is this ok? Appreciate that you've had problems sourcing a bricklayer, but this wouldn't have been ok for us.

 

Not sure if you're able to be there in the day, but what has worked for us is trying to establish buy in for the project, people have seen us doing stuff and we have made it clear its going to be our home (not a profit making venture), and whilst it can be difficult to pick things up a "sorry, not sure that's right; not what we were looking for; or even know we're being picky" has gone a long way.

 

There is no doubt we've been lucky, but ........

[torre]

Yes raise the issue, 22mm is a lot to be out by DPC. What were the foundations like? Has he created a problem or inherited one (even so he should've been picking this up)?

 

If you'll have level thresholds at multiple openings over that length then one potential problem might be you'd struggle later with a liquid screed.

 

Our brickie had to pick one corner up over a few courses, marking the spacings for the next few courses out on the corner profiles seemed to work well (say the good end is 75/150/225/300 then the low end mark 77/154/231/308 etc) until you're back level.

 

You have to have an honest discussion, ask how he plans to get back to level, suggest taking down a course or two as the lower you start to fix this, the easier it'll be. Give him a chance and then decide from his response (both attitude and actions) if he's someone you can work with or will be battling with for the rest of the brickwork.

 

When you say soil pipe into the back inlet, I guess you only mean grey water, not a toilet?

[ToughButterCup]

5 hours ago, flanagaj said:

...  Alarm bells are ringing in my head again and I don't know whether I should raise the issue...

 

Yes, you should.

 

How you do that is the key

 

You are not an expert - or assumed not to be an expert: and the minute you start pointing to what might - or might not - be a problem, you become a target. For his (?) ire. 

Raise the issue in plain straight terms:

• I see this [...] as a problem. Am I correct in thinking it is one?
• How are we going to get to the required level ? And by when ?
• Do not suggest an answer to your question(s) - you'd be pissed off with me if I came and asked you why you'd coded that 'class' as you did.
• Give clear direction on the desired outcome
• Supervise daily - take a benign  interest in the short term, tighten as necessary

Under no circumstances pay him yet.  

[kandgmitchell]

LABC warranty manual suggests no more than 15mm for walls over 5m long.

 

See this:  https://www.labcwarranty.co.uk/hubfs/Technical Manual v10 Files and Images/Manual Sections/Section 1 Tolerances.pdf#:~:text=A 10mm deviation is suggested,over 5m long.

 

It's frustrating about leaving lintels out etc. Our groundworker had a tendency to say "that's close enough". I always countered with "what the frame erectors want they must have, so stick to their requirements please otherwise I'll get the blame". For instance we had set places for rainwater drains so the associated downpipes could be located over studs in the frame for fixing. I had to have the first gulley moved because it had to be 1645mm from the corner and he put it at 1800mm odd. "They'll just move the downpipe" was the reply, but why not just put it where the drawing said in the first place!!! I found blaming others for "being awkward" came in useful and maintained a working relationship until we got there......

[ToughButterCup]

@kandgmitchell, and @saveasteading point to a generalisable problem 

 

• inaccurate or poor workmanship is commonly excused by reference to the follow-on  trades : or preceding trades

and that process continues until chippies can justifiably say that they compensate for everyone else's errors of commission or omission. 

Added to that, there's a pernicious tendency to attribute fault to a customer who (as in this case) has the temerity to draw attention to a genuine  problem. 

 

@kandgmitchell 's formula - reference to standards required by others - is  a superb way of professionalising matters.

 

Works well across all professions - apart from undertakers.

Edited 13 hours ago by ToughButterCup

[Spinny]

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here !

[Spinny]

4 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

you'd be pissed off with me if I came and asked you why you'd coded that 'class' as you did.

Would flanagaj be pissed off though ? Or just curious enough to say 'why do you ask ?'

 

The world is full of people that are certain they are right, but often wrong, yet take personal offence if anyone questions them. The people to have are those that always know there is stuff they don't know, happy to discuss any problem, because the issue is just the issue, so there is never any need to take personal offence.

 

https://youtu.be/KkLN6bUGfZY?si=95SftKIzz_03eqM7

[Russell griffiths]

The rough work should be underground, by the time he’s at dpc I would want it within 5mm from corner to corner. 
so if you have a box one corner can go down 5mm and then up to the other corner, I don’t mean it progresses down or up around the building until he is 20 mm out. 
5mm overall. 
why don’t you put a stake in with dpc marked on it at every corner. 
he should work from that height down not from the concrete up. 

[flanagaj]

6 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Yes, you should.

 

How you do that is the key

 

You are not an expert - or assumed not to be an expert: and the minute you start pointing to what might - or might not - be a problem, you become a target. For his (?) ire. 

Raise the issue in plain straight terms:

• I see this [...] as a problem. Am I correct in thinking it is one?
• How are we going to get to the required level ? And by when ?
• Do not suggest an answer to your question(s) - you'd be pissed off with me if I came and asked you why you'd coded that 'class' as you did.
• Give clear direction on the desired outcome
• Supervise daily - take a benign  interest in the short term, tighten as necessary

Under no circumstances pay him yet.  

This is probably why I always seem to rub people up the wrong way.  That's a diplomatic approach.  Even when I did get my laser level out to prove that it was off, it went down like a lead below and was basically dismissed as my laser level must be off.  I even then went to the lengths of checking both his and my laser level (both of which are correct)

I was hoping for a "fair point, it's off and I will rectify the problem", but it's basically been left.   

[flanagaj]

42 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

why don’t you put a stake in with dpc marked on it at every corner. 

I will do that tomorrow morning first thing.  And try and be diplomatic so he knows that I want it to that level.

It's not bloody rocket science is it.  The JCB driver who dug the oversite was within +/-10mm 

[Nickfromwales]

25 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

I will do that tomorrow morning first thing.  And try and be diplomatic so he knows that I want it to that level.

It's not bloody rocket science is it.  The JCB driver who dug the oversite was within +/-10mm 

Diplomacy isn't working. You can't repeat the action and expect a different result, so stop him from doing any more work and ask him if he's interested in the rest of the job (or not). His response will be what decides your new direction / next decision.

 

Tell him straight, no quivery top lip, that you have slept on it and cannot accept the discrepancy. End of feckin chat.

 

If he shrugs his shoulders and packs up and fecks off, good riddance.

If he decides to offer up a solution to rectify, then tell him it has to be removed on his time and not yours as it should have been right first time.

 

Stop tolerating useless assholes. I wouldn't get away with this, how can he????

 

[Spinny]

The water level is your friend and never lies, never lied in over 4500 years.

[Adrock]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

Stop tolerating useless assholes. I wouldn't get away with this, how can he????

 

 

It's, unfortunately, the industry we work in. All the years I was on the tools and then project managing I got known as the perfectionist on the firm. In my humble opinion I was just doing things as shown on the drawing. And that was in healthcare as well.

[Nickfromwales]

35 minutes ago, Adrock said:

 

It's, unfortunately, the industry we work in. All the years I was on the tools and then project managing I got known as the perfectionist on the firm. In my humble opinion I was just doing things as shown on the drawing. And that was in healthcare as well.

I’ve just had to convince a client to boot his builder and gang off site, very serious stuff that he was trying to cover up……

 

A friend said to me, “you’re the grim reaper for builders”.

 

I am if they're incompetent, deceptive, thieving fcuktards. I was there for MVHR only, but couldn’t (in good conscience) hold my tongue any longer.

 

Said chap pulled me aside on site and tried the bully tactics to get me to keep schtum. Didn’t work. “Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out”, and out he went.

 

I’ve met some excellent ones, but sadly they are very few and very far between, but from the good ones that I have been lucky to have worked with I picked up some great knowledge, and I use it on every new project to continue to better myself.

 

Giving a feck costs nothing, but quality costs more as it consumes time. If someone doesn't value quality, and doesn’t want to pay me for my time and experience, then I walk away and let them suffer mediocrity. Always costs them more time and money, but you cannot educate pork.