Architect costs

[Oz07]

How long is a piece of string but generally what are people paying for architects? Ive always used a riba architect previously and also had a PCC off them too. I think excluding the PCC I've usually paid around 2% of build cost. Not that the deal is a set % of build cost its just that's where the quote has come in. For planning and building regs no project management or anything like that. 

[fatgus]

We had quotes from £3k to well over £50k for ours… the RIBA architects at the top end were far too interested in telling us how wonderful they were and generally wanted to build the house they wanted, whereas the one we eventually chose (around £4k, which is <1% of build cost) listened, understood and delivered exactly what we wanted. We’d probably have been happy with 2% of build cost, but some were nudging 10% which is surely insane unless it’s a really complicated design 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Gus Potter]

2 hours ago, Oz07 said:

How long is a piece of string but generally what are people paying for architects? Ive always used a riba architect previously and also had a PCC off them too. I think excluding the PCC I've usually paid around 2% of build cost. Not that the deal is a set % of build cost its just that's where the quote has come in. For planning and building regs no project management or anything like that. 

Food for thought:

 

Another way of approaching this is to ask. What would it cost you to get a washing machine repair Engineer? Say £50- 60 quid an hour? Ok they have a "down time" that they don't get paid for as they may be at your house for an hour then have to drive to the next job, but someone has to pay for that. 

 

Now typical rates for a structural engineer working under the IR35 scheme in the UK are about £350 to £500 a day, equates to £45 - £70 an hour as they get paid for a full 8 hour day. Much depends on experience! 

 

Go to a self employed SE/ Architectural Designer like me who has no employees then the rates are about the same except that I have overheads. These are primarily my software, my PI insurance and admin costs. Admin / business generating costs. Admin is admin, I pay an accountant, have to keep records, a secure data base etc.. but quite a lot of time is spent generating business that a contractor under IR 35 does not have to do. 

 

Turning now to say a small Architect practice with four or five employees that are innovative, expanding and so on. The overheads shoot up, often dramatically. 

 

How long is the string? 

 

Well it has no end. This is a summary for sake of conversation.  It used to be in the old days that say Architect's, Engineers, Surveyors got a percentage of the build cost. But as the market got more competetive and folk like say MBC timber frame (the list is endless) came along and offered a design service then the main designers.. like Architect's, SE's just shifted part of the design work  onto them. Now all that worked ok for a bit.. but now it's got to the stage where the lack of coordination is really causing problems. This is not helped by TV programmes ect that often suggest you can pick builder and design sevices like something off a barber shop menu and it will all be ok at the end of the day. 

 

My take: 

 

It's vitally important to understand what you designer is offering. Not just in terms of say doing a few drawings but also their understanding of how the design process works practically and how you go about communication to and finding the right builder. . I find that often once I explain this "added value" then many are happy to pay for a service that includes much more than drawings and some structural calculations. In the round once you become a competant designer then the rest is down to communication.. which is a skill in itself. 

 

2% of a build cost for an Architect

 

Take a house extension at 100k.. you won't get much for your two thousand pounds. take a new build at 300k  with all the work that goes along with that, dealing with the roads, environments, water board.. all that stuff all for 6.0k. Just maybe but I would not do it as I know I would have to cut corners.. which will come back to bite eveyone.

 

Quite often these days I break down my quotes / estimates into how long I'll spend on each element of the design. I'll maybe say.. two days to survey the site,  at £xx amount per hour and so on. I find Clients embrace my transparency. It is very rare that they come back and say my hourly or daily rate is too high. 

 

In the round I don't think applying a percentage fee cost works anymore.. you have to be much more streetwise. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

18 minutes ago, fatgus said:

We had quotes from £3k to well over £50k for ours… the RIBA architects at the top end were far too interested in telling us how wonderful they were and generally wanted to build the house they wanted, whereas the one we eventually chose (around £4k, which is <1% of build cost) listened, understood and delivered exactly what we wanted. We’d probably have been happy with 2% of build cost, but some were nudging 10% which is surely insane unless it’s a really complicated design

For less than 1.0% you must have got the most basic service which is not for all. 

 

Can you let us know just what you got for your 1%?

 

[Oz07]

@Gus Potter i dont need any project management. I will sort all applications with utilities and highways. All I need is planning and building regs. Plot will be BNG exempt. 

[JohnMo]

11 hours ago, Oz07 said:

generally what are people paying for architects

Ask @flanagaj what he paid, then pay more than that. Then you won't have to come here asking questions about basic design stuff, that should be in the drawings already.

[saveasteading]

9 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

"down time" that they don't get paid 

And keeping up with the latest regulations and interpretations, and new products,  in our own time.

[G and J]

We paid what will end up being about 3% of the build cost.

 

3 stages, survey and prelim drawings; planning application (local RIBA architect, knew planners, edge of conservation area, active town council); building regs drawings, which we pushed them hard on the get the spec we wanted rather than the one they may have done as the norm.

 

No detailed SE calcs, but they made it clear at outset we'd need to source that and likely costs, also outlined in they initial quote other costs (pp and building regs apps etc). Handled NMA as part of package.

 

They also gave us info on local private buiding regs co. and tendered this for us; intro to SAP assesor.

 

Their drawings were then used (provided by them) by the timber frame manufacturer.

 

The gap for us, given that we were/are self managing and were erecting frame, was overlays that combined the SE's (excellent local individual) foundations design with the frame (SE also looked at frame design and steel calcs for his own (and ours!) "peace of mind", all good) and section drawings. All worked out but would have been easier if they had all been on one diagram...certainly for those of us with less "experience".

[Oz07]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Ask @flanagaj what he paid, then pay more than that. Then you won't have to come here asking questions about basic design stuff, that should be in the drawings already.

? Ive not had any drawings done yet as not decided who im using yet. Hence the thread 

[AshleyFae]

We paid roughly £6k for our design drawings + planning application management.

 

We had some other, cheaper quotes from architects who seemed very nice. We ultimately picked a more expensive one purely because he was insanely responsive and proactive with all his ideas. Absolutely zero regrets so far; he's been incredible. The responsiveness alone is worth its weight in gold. So sick of people just not replying or taking eons to get their stuff together.

[fatgus]

12 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

For less than 1.0% you must have got the most basic service which is not for all. 

 

Can you let us know just what you got for your 1%?

 

 

No worries... The fees to date cover items 1-8 below. 9-21 are another couple of thousand. We have planning approval, have discharged the pre-commencement conditions and we're probably 50% of the way through the remaining points.

 

PREPARATION
1. Development of initial statement of requirements into the Design Brief on behalf of the
client confirming key requirements and constraints.
2. Surveyor and measure the house.
DESIGN
3. Prepare a number of sketch designs as your brief and for discussion purposes.
This can include hand sketches, 3D computer modelling and physical models.
4. Prepare final design/make alterations in accordance with your instructions this will be
weighted at 20% of the design fee.
Planning
5. Prepare planning drawings and other information if needed.
6. Submit the Full Plans and Design Statement.
7. Act as clients agent during the planning process and advise on planning requirements.
8. Notify the neighbouring owners of the construction under the Party Wall Act etc. 1996,
prepare notification letters only under the act.

PRE-CONSTRUCTION
9 Obtain a quotation for a Structural Engineers on your behalf. The client will hold such
persons, and not the Designer, responsible for the competence, suitability and
performance of the work thereby entrusted to them. This also includes any specialist
contractor, sub-contractor or supplier
10. Liaise with the Structural Engineers and co-ordinate changes across all disciplines.
11. Revise drawings to suit Structural Engineers/ specialist contractor/ supplier designs.
12. Detail Structural Engineers drawings to suit.
13. Write to the statutory services and establish service locations.
14. Prepare detailed construction drawings and could include, depending on project:

- Dimension Plan
- Electrical Plan
- Foundation Layout
- Sections
- Detailed Sections
- Drainage layout
- External works and indicative landscaping scheme

15. Prepare a specification.
16. Prepare the storm and foul water drainage.
17. Discharge planning conditions.
18. Obtain notification of planning discharged conditions.
19. Obtain a Radon report.
20. Make a Building Regulation application to the local authority.
21. Prepared copies (or originals) of all approval documents and statutory consents.

 

I have to say that the project has very possibly taken longer and been more complicated than the architect perhaps initially anticipated, but to be fair to them they have stuck to their original quote. We've been very involved in the design process. Additionally, we've done quite a lot ourselves (rainwater & foul water management plans, SAB application, planting plans, green infrastructure statement etc) but that was pretty straightforward and quite enjoyable. That being said, most of those aspects weren't included in the other architects' proposals anyway.

 

One of the really frustrating things was that most of the architects we met, with only a couple of exceptions, seemed intent on designing the house as if it was for them. We gave all of them the same brief and most ignored it. One flounced onto the site dressed like a Tom Baker Doctor Who wannabe and spent an hour telling me how wonderful he was... his quote was over £40k and having seen some of his other work I saw nothing to justify it.

 

Of the architects I met in person, the one we chose was the only one to ask questions about our lifestyle & routines, how we expected these to change, what worked/didn't work in our current house... I really felt that they were invested in helping us build a house we'd love. I'd use them again in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Oz07]

29 minutes ago, fatgus said:

 

 

One of the really frustrating things was that most of the architects we met, with only a couple of exceptions, seemed intent on designing the house as if it was for them. We gave all of them the same brief and most ignored it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is a regular thing. Even I've had that vibe lately. 

[Spinny]

I think it depends on exactly what you do or don't want.

 

Some just want some basic drawings for the planning application creating based on their own sketch.

Some want someone that severely games the planning system to get plans through that should never get through.

You can't build a planning application drawing, and any build quote you get will be fairly meaningless. To build you need construction drawings, or you start making it up as you go along. To get a proper quote you need construction drawings, electrical plan, structural engineer's design/report and a tender document which becomes part of the building contract.

Some want actual creative design to address their life needs (i.e. the brief) and achieve aesthetic goals.

Some want to build at £1.5k/sqm, others at £8k/sqm.

Some want to accept whatever single design the architect draws unchanged, some want preliminary concepts to choose between, some want to look carefully at the plans and make improvements and changes to give them what they really want.

 

I would always say plan, plan, and plan because the more you plan, the more problems you will avoid. Change on projects is always a killer.

You certainly see so many extensions that are diabolical - saw one once where someone had built a kind of bridge with steps up and down to cross a staircase opening.

 

Builders and Architects love to hate each other but each bring something essential.

 

The best thing a good architect can give you is probably a route to a good reliable builder.

[ToughButterCup]

Here's our architect's answer to your question

 

[JohnMo]

Glad I live in Scotland, the rules are black and white on what has to be provided, none of this messing about, I would like this and not that.

[Oz07]

8 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

Here's our architect's answer to your question

 

Ouch!

[Oz07]

24 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Glad I live in Scotland, the rules are black and white on what has to be provided, none of this messing about, I would like this and not that.

Whats the craic up there then? What do you have to have and what is extra?