a warning re wet timber.

[saveasteading]

We had a delivery of sopping wet timber and sent it back.

 

From asking around it seems that all suppliers round here keep tanalised (and other treatments) timber in the yard, uncovered. They think that is ok because it won't rot, and they regard it as 'outdoors' timber. Few have enough shelter, and seem to me to have far too much stock, perhaps as an investment.

Their own trade specifies that all wood should be protected and ventilated. But they don't much care as long as it is selling. They don't invest in tarpaulins.

 

The brochures may say kiln dried, but then forget to mention ' and then left outdoors in the rain until somebody accepts it.'

 

The thing is, that we are using treated timber for the shell and are investing in the long term with no worries about dampness , woodworm  etc. I know from experience that wasps can find their way into tiny gaps and like to chew wood for their nests, Treated wood won't be chewed twice. Plus as we are building in the open, it was bound to get a bit wet for a while.

 

 

An earlier delivery was also wet, and it bent by up to 50mm over a 6m length, making it unsuitable for structure.  Half of these were also sent back, without argument.

 

So the moral is to tell your supplier that the timber must be dry in accordance with their industry guidelines. They might  decline, but they can also set some aside under cover, or buy it in new from the docks.

 

This probably does not apply to CLS which presumably is regarded as internal timber.  We are ordering some so will see.

 

Structural timber must be dry so that it keeps shape, especially in the vertical. 

And I dread to think what happens to a floor when the joists twist. Do the floor screws reach?

Plus you don't want it twisting after construction.

The timber industry body agrees, except that the merchants dont seem to know that.

 

 

 

[SimonD]

6 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

The timber industry body agrees, except that the merchants dont seem to know that.

 

There are a lot of people I know who are fed up with my moaning about this. I went to a merchant not long ago that a lot of builders around here use and swear by for timber quality. I then looked at their yard only to see the treated timber stacked in a hardcore yard that  and not even paved and then the timber completely open to the elements. Needless to say I did not buy my timber from there. The issue is also protection from sunshine because as soon as the sun falls on some exposed damp timber, let the warping begin.

 

The problem is that it's almost impossible to find a merchant that properly follows the standards. Even when stored under cover, the warehouses are almost never humidity controlled either. I use one supplier who has a closed humidity controlled warehouse you're not even allowed to access but have to wait outside for the forklift to bring your order, but even they store a lot of treated timber outside (with a little cover).

[MikeGrahamT21]

Places like B&Q and Wickes are actually quite good places to buy timber from, since their warehouses are also shops, they are heated to some extent and ventilated, but even there some of it can be warped, or just not dried enough as the tanalising happens after kiln drying (iirc), and often isn't left long enough to dry before being shipped to store

[saveasteading]

We have gone with 'the devil you know' as they have agreed to buy in what we need and keep it indoors. obv this is no risk just cash-flow and a bit of space, but shows willing.

We do have to do an urgent tally of expected quantities.  (we have several km of timber going in)

I can't understand why they can't put tarpaulins over. That is a one-time cost. The industry could make them to exactly suit bundles of timber at a low cost. 

 

Their industry document shows this. I guess the merchants just throw these covers away because the yardmen can't be bothered.

 

I'm quite cross about this and worry somewhat about the quality of  other buldings... eg the ones where our rejected timber goes to later. Also that the majority of project managers must be accepting this stuff.... and what else do they not care about?

 

 

 

 

 

In case anybody wants more info.  It quite clearly says that keeping it dry is very important.

 

 

https://timberdevelopment.uk/are-you-keeping-your-timber-stocks-safe/

 

And the following summary comes from AI so is hardly hidden info.   The yellow is my highlighting.

 

Based on TRADA guidelines, proper storage of timber on site is critical to prevent moisture changes, warping, distortion, and staining. 

 

Key Principles for Timber Storage

• Keep Off the Ground: Store timber on dry, even ground to prevent moisture uptake, preferably on elevated, level bearers (e.g., 75mm x 75mm).
• Protect from Elements: Use waterproof, breathable covers to protect from rain and direct sunlight, which causes warping.
• Allow Air Circulation: Ensure air can circulate around the timber, even under covers, to prevent condensation and moisture buildup.
• Avoid Contamination: Keep timber away from standing water, muddy areas, and sources of damage. 

[Alan Ambrose]

Yeah it’s a bit nonsense, but we’re finding the better quality timber doesn’t warp even if it’s wet.

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

the better quality timber doesn’t warp even if it’s wet.

Agreed.

Of 80 lengths of 6 x 2, we took wet in an earlier batch, we sent back 40. 

I had wrongly assumed that the vacuum treatment would have collapsed and filled open pores with the treatment chemical. BUT someone suggests that was the case with old, oil-based treatment but no longer.

 

The 40 rejected were up to 50mm bend over 6m. They will sell them to less critical builders. Cutting into 3m will make most passable.

 

I once needed some 2 x 2 in a hurry so accepted the dregs from a merchant. One had a complete 90° twist over 4.8m.

[Mattg4321]

It is a nightmare especially at this time of year.

 

Doesn't really help when you need large quantities, but that's the beauty of Wickes etc. You can stand there for as long as you like rooting through timber to find something straight and true. 

[ProDave]

9 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said:

but that's the beauty of Wickes etc. You can stand there for as long as you like rooting through timber to find something straight and true. 

And then within a few hours of you getting it home and into your house, it becomes the shape of a banana.

 

 

[Beau]

 

In my experience, kiln-dried constructional timber is not dried to the same extent as hardwoods. I’m a furniture maker, log seller, and miller by trade, and when buying in hardwoods for furniture they are dried to around 8–10%, which is close to what they will sit at in an average home. When I’ve tested construction softwoods, they’re normally in the 16–20% range, so they will shrink and warp more if used inside the heated envelope, but are fine for external use as is.

Worth noting that even though it’s a pain buying in timber that’s been soaked by the rain, it will quickly dry back to its kiln-dried moisture content, as this water is not bound in the cells of the wood. Getting it from 16–20% down to 8–10% for the home can be a slow process, but softwoods dry more quickly than hardwoods. As mentioned, the wood in the DIY sheds is often much drier due to its storage environment, but also much more warped and twisted, as it’s dried beyond what you get at the builders’ merchants.

[Mattg4321]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

And then within a few hours of you getting it home and into your house, it becomes the shape of a banana.

 

 

Certainly a possibility, but not usually if the timber is dry when you pick it out.

[saveasteading]

7 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

rooting through timber to find something straight and true. 

I did this in a BM once and the yard man complained we were taking the good stuff and leaving the rubbish.

 

We've had masses of 10 x 2 delivered and it is beautifully dry. It will have been wrapped from Finland to the BM then straight to us. 

[Iceverge]

What are you building, I'm invested now?!

 

This lovely builder will horrify you. Framing with fresh sawn green lumber! 

 

https://riversonghousewright.wordpress.com/about/25-riversong-truss-system-home/

 

Can you not just get a pallet of timber delivered wrapped like these ones here? 

 

[stu w]

I purchased all my c24 treated timbers to carry out my build a year before in required it .4x2, 6x2 8x2 and 9x2

Broke all the packs down and stick stripped every row, when build time come it was all around 12-14% and straight as a die.

Not had a single bit of movement in the build.

Is it practical,  not really,  is it time consuming yes, then having thousands of pounds of timber stored,  was it worth it 100% 

[Mattg4321]

I didn't go to those lengths, but one thing I see on site time and again is builders using leftover roofing batten etc to create boxings/batten off walls etc etc. The stuff is usually soaked through with whatever chemical they use when it's tanalised, if not rainwater. Usually both.

 

People thought I was a bit mad only using kiln dried timber for my internal bits. Yet... over a year later and not one crack or popped screw.

[Alan Ambrose]

@saveasteading - was that a local BM?

[saveasteading]

12 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

was that a local BM?

Yes. Why do you ask?

 

13 hours ago, Iceverge said:

pallet of timber delivered wrapped like these ones here? 

I originally planned that for economy, not wrapping. Because I once got a massive discount for doing this ( much more than the BM  anticipated because it was one thing with one margin and no goubke handling) . But the prices I got this time were only about 20p/m better. So went for the convenience of not storing this massive amount, and the option to modify the design.

And whole packs of 4 timber sections would have been excessive.

13 hours ago, Iceverge said:

What are you building, I'm invested now?

 

In simple terms, a steel barn structure conversion  with a timber build inside.

Radical perhaps and something to do to ourselves and prob wouldn't to a paying client.

The slab is very substantial so sole plates go straight on it.

Barns are designed to just stand up, with no factors of safety. So it needed strengthening even without adding floor beams. The geometry is all over the place too. 

 

The advantage over steel is that timber is easy to adapt and the skills are available. 

My career has been steel based, but always looking at options. 

 

Ground floor stud complete. Joists going in then a single floor deck.. and repeat.

 

 

[Roger440]

8 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Yes. Why do you ask?

 

I originally planned that for economy, not wrapping. Because I once got a massive discount for doing this ( much more than the BM  anticipated because it was one thing with one margin and no goubke handling) . But the prices I got this time were only about 20p/m better. So went for the convenience of not storing this massive amount, and the option to modify the design.

And whole packs of 4 timber sections would have been excessive.

 

In simple terms, a steel barn structure conversion  with a timber build inside.

Radical perhaps and something to do to ourselves and prob wouldn't to a paying client.

The slab is very substantial so sole plates go straight on it.

Barns are designed to just stand up, with no factors of safety. So it needed strengthening even without adding floor beams. The geometry is all over the place too. 

 

The advantage over steel is that timber is easy to adapt and the skills are available. 

My career has been steel based, but always looking at options. 

 

Ground floor stud complete. Joists going in then a single floor deck.. and repeat.

 

 

 

So a house inside the barn? So the barn is just a rain/weather shield?

 

Always wondered why this wasnt done more often given the grief people seem to go through stengthening the barns,

 

[Gus Potter]

23 hours ago, Iceverge said:

This lovely builder will horrify you. Framing with fresh sawn green lumber! 

You make a good point. An oak frame building is constructed from green oak. I have a farmer pal who bought a log cabin kit house to rent out out as part of the farm business. The oak frames shrink a bit.. the log cabins.. we are talking 50 - 100mm! I'm fine designing this way provided you design for the movement. This is very much different from what we have been discussing where we want to have strict control over shrinkage.

 

As an SE / designer we need to understand how the different materials move / shrink / expand as it can have a big impact on how we connect things together. For the self build market we need to recognise that self builders often don't get economy of scale like the big builders when buying stuff. The economy of scale also applies to hard / complex details and the labour cost to execute these. On a big job with many houses you work with the Contractor on a template, resolve the buildability problems. In other words the folk on site practice on one house and then get faster at it. But you don't have this luxury on a self build. 

 

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

So a house inside the barn? So the barn is just a rain/weather shield?

@saveasteading is into lean  and cost effective design. The original barn steel frame is having to pay it's way, no free lunch for it!

 

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

Always wondered why this wasnt done more often given the grief people seem to go through stengthening the barns,

I've seen some posts where folk in England are converting agricultural buildings to homes. The planners suddenly think they are SE's / designers and insist that the steel frame of the barn is a structural element before they can approve.

 

Now this can be done and often a design case can be made that satisfies the planners and the Clients design intent. The basic appoach is to analyse the existing agricultural frame, which 99% of the time fails under the more onerous domestic loadings, then transfer the excess vertical and sideways wind loads to the new timber frame shell inside and connect it all together. 

On 25/01/2026 at 11:16, Beau said:

I’m a furniture maker, log seller, and miller by trade, and when buying in hardwoods for furniture they are dried to around 8–10%, which is close to what they will sit at in an average home. When I’ve tested construction softwoods, they’re normally in the 16–20% range, so they will shrink and warp more if used inside the heated envelope, but are fine for external use as is.

Good to have you on board and good comment. 

 

There are things you can do on site when drying timber, on the FLAT, not vertically.  It takes time but you stack the timber, batten it to let the air through. Then every week you lift the timber off the top. Turn it up the other way and turn it end for end and put it on the bottom of the pile. Do this with every second row vetically , then alternate. The way this works is that as the timber wants to bow and twist it is resisted by the weight of the pile. You can add extra weight to the top of the pile by stacking some concrete blocks or anything heavy that distributes an even load. 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

On 23/01/2026 at 14:18, saveasteading said:

An earlier delivery was also wet, and it bent by up to 50mm over a 6m length, making it unsuitable for structure.  Half of these were also sent back, without argument.

Great example of what happens if you stand your ground!

 

The info @saveasteading provides is your ammunition!

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Then every week you lift the timber off the top. Turn it up...

Which is why we are buying 2 weeks work of wood at a time, at most. Costing a bit more but saving this costly chore.

 

@Gus Potterhas been our SE on this as he bought into the fairly radical concept with enthusiasm rather than horror. I'll post a pic of how the timber will prop the steel, when we get that high.

 

Another of the pragmatic decisions was that the purlins were also undersize. We planned to add steel to strengthen them, ( id done this before) but the steel erector wasn't buying into it so we bought new Z rails. To his credit the guy stripped and fitted new (just shy of 50) in 2 days.

 

3 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

The planners suddenly think they are SE's / designers and insist that the steel frame of the barn is a structural element before they can approve.

 

@Gus Potterthat is a requirement. The shed must be proven to be redundant yet also still viable for its original use. 

This prevents farmers building new barns to use just to  sell old ones at a premium. Seems fair to me.

 

In our case it clearly hadn't been used for grain for years. But that use meant it had more strength  than most, and no slurry.

 

5 hours ago, Roger440 said:

the grief people seem to go through stengthening the barns,

 

It's much easier, probably much the same cost and much quicker to build new, but not permitted.

I suspect that most buyers are not aware it needs strengthening, perhaps even of foundations, and get a nasty  shock.

[Gus Potter]

46 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

@Gus Potter has been our SE on this as he bought into the fairly radical concept with enthusiasm rather than horror.

Ok the cat is out the bag!

 

For all. 

 

@saveasteading is converting a very big argicutural barn into home. I was invited to get involved as I had chipped into a previous project of his.

 

For all. This project has pretty much everything that you need to know if you want to convert a barn to a home and not chuck money down the drain. My SE input has been to confirm what @saveasteading already knows, back that up with SE calculations, chip in with a bit of tough love from time to time, a few ideas and propose some SE design nuances. We all work together, and still are, to get something that is buidable and every pound is a prisoner!

 

Maybe at some point @saveasteading will post on the key points of their journey, from the planning to completion stage. 

 

For me all I can say, while maintaining a bit of confidence is, the design journey has been great fun at my end, have had to work hard at times, questioned closely by a very experienced Chartered Enginner with vast experience. (saveasteading) worth the effort.  Funny thing is that from time to time I work as a checking Engineer so it's good when you get put through you paces! 

 

I've learnt a lot, everyones skills and depth of knowledge has been tested. All the folk involved has decades of experience.

 

Now for all. Yes we have experience but being old is not always the key.. the key is that we communicate, when we don't know something we just fesse up and say.. I don't know and we go and we find out and discuss how we solve desing issues.

 

If you are self building then if you get the right team then you are really up and running.

 

For all young designers out there.. us old crusties don't expect you to know it all.. we just want you to talk while bringing new ideas to the table in return! 

 

@ETC does this make sense? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Iceverge]

An interesting project and I'm sure I'm not alone on wanting to see more of it at some stage.

 

Agri barns are good for their job. Providing economical shelter for agricultural goods, livestock fodder machinery. 

 

However making one into a house is monetary madness. It's often cheaper to knock and rebuild a new barn for farming rather than repair an old one not to mind making it habitable. 

 

The rules on this are idiotic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

24 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

However making one into a house is monetary madness.

It can be but if you have a competent floor slab and founds to the steel frame it can be a money spinner!